Message-ID: <20120906213105.GF2448@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:31:05 -0700
From:	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
To:	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...ymtl.ca>
Cc:	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, mingo@...e.hu, laijs@...fujitsu.com,
	dipankar@...ibm.com, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
	josh@...htriplett.org, niv@...ibm.com, tglx@...utronix.de,
	rostedt@...dmis.org, Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu, dhowells@...hat.com,
	eric.dumazet@...il.com, darren@...art.com, fweisbec@...il.com,
	sbw@....edu, patches@...aro.org,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paul.mckenney@...aro.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH tip/core/rcu 23/23] rcu: Simplify quiescent-state
 detection

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 05:18:59PM -0400, Mathieu Desnoyers wrote:
> * Paul E. McKenney (paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 04:36:02PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 11:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > > From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paul.mckenney@...aro.org>
> > > > 
> > > > The current quiescent-state detection algorithm is needlessly
> > > > complex.
> > > 
> > > Heh! Be careful, we might be led into believing all this RCU is actually
> > > really rather simple and this complexity is a bug on your end ;-)
> > 
> > Actually, the smallest "toy" implementation of RCU is only about 20
> > lines of code -- and on a mythical sequentially consistent system, it
> > would be smaller still.  Of course, the Linux kernel implementation if
> > somewhat larger.  Something about wanting scalability above a few tens of
> > CPUs, real-time response (also on huge numbers of CPUs), energy-efficient
> > handling of dyntick-idle mode, detection of stalled CPUs, and so on.  ;-)
> > 
> > > >   It records the grace-period number corresponding to
> > > > the quiescent state at the time of the quiescent state, which
> > > > works, but it seems better to simply erase any record of previous
> > > > quiescent states at the time that the CPU notices the new grace
> > > > period.  This has the further advantage of removing another piece
> > > > of RCU for which lockless reasoning is required. 
> > > 
> > > So why didn't you do that from the start? :-)
> > 
> > Because I was slow and stupid!  ;-)
> > 
> > > That is, I'm curious to know some history, why was it so and what led
> > > you to this insight?
> > 
> > I had historically (as in for almost 20 years now) used a counter
> > to track grace periods.  Now these are in theory subject to integer
> > overflow, but DYNIX/ptx was non-preemptible, so the general line of
> > reasoning was that anything that might stall long enough for even a 32-bit
> > grace-period counter to overflow would necessarily stall grace periods,
> > thus preventing overflow.
> > 
> > Of course, the advent of CONFIG_PREEMPT in the Linux kernel invalidated
> > this assumption, but for most uses, if the grace-period counter overflows,
> > you have waited way more than a grace period, so who cares?
> > 
> > Then combination of TREE_RCU and dyntick-idle came along, and it became
> > necessary to more carefully associate quiescent states with the corresponding
> > grace period.  Now here overflow is dangerous, because it can result in
> > associating an ancient quiescent state with the current grace period.
> > But my attitude was that if you have a task preempted for more than one
> > year, getting soft-lockup warnings every two minutes during that time,
> > well, you got what you deserved.  And even then at very low probability.
> > 
> > However, formal validation software (such as Promela) do not take kindly
> > to free-running counters.  The usual trick is to use a much narrower
> > counter.  But that would mean that any attempted mechanical validation
> > would give a big fat false positive on the counter used to associate
> > quiescent states with grace periods.  Because I have a long-term goal
> > of formally validating RCU is it sits in the Linux kernel, that counter
> > had to go.
> 
> I believe this approach bring the kernel RCU implementation slightly
> closer to the userspace RCU implementation we use for 32-bit QSBR and
> the 32/64-bit "urcu mb" variant for libraries, of which we've indeed
> been able to make a complete formal model in Promela. Simplifying the
> algorithm (mainly its state-space) in order to let formal verifiers cope
> with it entirely has a lot of value I think: it lets us mechanically
> verify safety and progress. A nice way to lessen the number of headaches
> caused by RCU! ;-)

However, I expect that it will be a fair amount more time and work
before in-kernel RCU can be easily mechanically verified.  But one step
at a time will get us there eventually.  ;-)

							Thanx, Paul

> Thanks!
> 
> Mathieu
> 
> > 
> > And I do believe that the result is easier for humans to understand, so
> > it is all to the good.
> > 
> > This time, at least.  ;-)
> > 
> > 							Thanx, Paul
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Mathieu Desnoyers
> Operating System Efficiency R&D Consultant
> EfficiOS Inc.
> http://www.efficios.com
> --
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