Message-ID: <20130208023237.GK11197@blaptop>
Date:	Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:32:37 +0900
From:	Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>
To:	Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>
Cc:	Lin Feng <linfeng@...fujitsu.com>, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
	bcrl@...ck.org, viro@...iv.linux.org.uk, khlebnikov@...nvz.org,
	walken@...gle.com, kamezawa.hiroyu@...fujitsu.com, riel@...hat.com,
	rientjes@...gle.com, isimatu.yasuaki@...fujitsu.com,
	wency@...fujitsu.com, laijs@...fujitsu.com, jiang.liu@...wei.com,
	zab@...hat.com, jmoyer@...hat.com, linux-mm@...ck.org,
	linux-aio@...ck.org, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH V2 1/2] mm: hotplug: implement non-movable version of
 get_user_pages() called get_user_pages_non_movable()

Hi Mel,

On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 09:56:17AM +0000, Mel Gorman wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 09:42:34AM +0900, Minchan Kim wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 12:01:37PM +0000, Mel Gorman wrote:
> > > On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 05:21:52PM +0800, Lin Feng wrote:
> > > > get_user_pages() always tries to allocate pages from movable zone, which is not
> > > >  reliable to memory hotremove framework in some case.
> > > > 
> > > > This patch introduces a new library function called get_user_pages_non_movable()
> > > >  to pin pages only from zone non-movable in memory.
> > > > It's a wrapper of get_user_pages() but it makes sure that all pages come from
> > > > non-movable zone via additional page migration.
> > > > 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
> > > > Cc: Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>
> > > > Cc: KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki <kamezawa.hiroyu@...fujitsu.com>
> > > > Cc: Yasuaki Ishimatsu <isimatu.yasuaki@...fujitsu.com>
> > > > Cc: Jeff Moyer <jmoyer@...hat.com>
> > > > Cc: Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>
> > > > Cc: Zach Brown <zab@...hat.com>
> > > > Reviewed-by: Tang Chen <tangchen@...fujitsu.com>
> > > > Reviewed-by: Gu Zheng <guz.fnst@...fujitsu.com>
> > > > Signed-off-by: Lin Feng <linfeng@...fujitsu.com>
> > > 
> > > I already had started the review of V1 before this was sent
> > > unfortunately. However, I think the feedback I gave for V1 is still
> > > valid so I'll wait for comments on that review before digging further.
> > 
> > Mel, Andrew
> > 
> > Sorry for making noise if you already confirmed the direction but I have a concern
> > about that.
> 
> I haven't confirmed any sort of direction, nor do I determine the
> direction for memory hot-remove which I'm only paying vague attention to.
> I stated a while ago that I think the use of ZONE_MOVABLE is a bad idea
> for "guaranteeing" memory hot-remove and is already going the "wrong"
> direction. That's just my opinion.
> 
> This patch is about mitigating (but not solving) the problem of long-lived
> pins. In the general case, about all I could think of for that is that the

Agreed.

> kernel would have to warn the administrator what applications had pinned
> the memory and wait for the user to shut them down. To guarantee anything,
> it would be necessary for subsystems to implement a callback for migration
> to unpin pages, barrier operations until migration completes and pin the
> new pfns.

It could be applied for SUBSYSTEM but it's very hard for all DRIVER developer,
and I doubt we can give them a common template most of driver developers can
reuse it.

> 
> > Because IMHO, we can't expect most of user for MEMORY_HOTPLUG will release
> > pinned pages immediately.
> 
> Indeed not, but it's not really what this patch is about. This patch is
> about moving the pages before they get permanently pinned. It mitigates
> the problem but does not solve it because there is no guarantee that the
> driver pinning a page will flag it properly.

True.
And I doubt what memory-hotplug guys really want is best effort,
not guarantee. Anway, CMA want to guarantee, even low latency and I hope
this patch solves both memory-hotplug and CMA solve the problem.

> 
> > In addtion, MEMORY_HOTPLUG could be used for embedded system
> > for reducing power by PASR and some drivers in embedded could use GUP anytime and anywhere.
> > They can't know in advance they will use pinned pages long time or release in short time
> > because it depends on some event like user's response which is very not predetermined.
> 
> True. This patch does not solve that problem.
> 
> > So for solving it, we can add some WARN_ON in CMA/MEMORY_HOTPLUG part just in case of
> > failing migration by page count and then, investigate they are really using GUP and
> > it's REALLY a culprit. If so, yell to them "Please use GUP_NM instead"?
> 
> Within the context of this patch, that is their main option. Finding
> who is holding the pin is a problem. For userspace-pinned buffers it's
> straight-forward as rmap will identify what processes are holding the
> pin (page->list vmas->mm, lookup all tasks until p->mm == mm) and report
> that. For driver-related pins, it's not as straight-forward. I guess there

True.

> could be callback to give meaningful information on it but no guarantee
> that drivers pinning pages will implement it. In that case all you could do

Nod.

> was dump page->mapping and punt it at a kernel developer to figure out the
> responsible driver. This might be managable for memory hot-remove where
> there is an administator but may not work at all for embedded users.

Yeab. Even there are proprietary modules in embedded, we can't see soruce code.

> 
> There is the possibility that callbacks could be introduced for
> migrate_unpin() and migrate_pin() that takes a list of PFN pairs
> (old,new). The unpin callback should release the old PFNs and barrier
> against any operations until the migrate_pfn() callback is called with
> the updated pfns to be repinned. Again it would fully depend on subsystems
> implementing it properly.
> 
> The callback interface would be more robust but puts a lot more work on
> the driver side where your milage will vary.

True.

> 
> > Yes. it could be done but it would be rather trobulesome job. Even it couldn't be triggered
> > during QE phase so that trouble doesn't end until all guys uses GUP_NM.
> > Let's consider another case. Some driver pin the page in very short time
> > so he decide to use GUP instead of GUP_NM but someday, someuser start to use the driver
> > very often so although pinning time is very short, it could be forever pinning effect
> > if the use calls it very often. In the end, we should change it with GUP_NM, again.
> > IMHO, In future, we ends up changing most of GUP user with GUP_NM if CMA and MEMORY_HOTPLUG
> > is available all over the world.
> > 
> 
> Same thing, callbacks to unpin and barrier would handle such a case by
> effectively freezing the driver or subsystem responsible for the page.
> 
> > So, what's wrong if we replace get_user_pages with get_user_pages_non_movable
> > in MEMORY_HOTPLUG/CMA without exposing get_user_pages_non_movable?
> > 
> > I mean this
> > 
> > #ifdef CONFIG_MIGRATE_ISOLATE
> > int get_user_pages()
> > {
> >         return __get_user_pages_non_movable();
> > }
> > #else
> > int get_user_pages()
> > {
> >         return old_get_user_pages();
> > }
> > #endif
> > 
> 
> That will migrate everything out of ZONE_MOVABLE every time it's pinned.
> One consequence is that direct IO can never use ZONE_MOVABLE on these
> systems. It'll create a variation of the lowmem exhaustion problem.

For example, there is 4G highmem zone and half of it is movable zone.
In thit case, we can use extra 2G highmem zone space instead of lowmem.
But I agree it could end up pinning many pages of lowmem so the problem
would happens. IMHO, it should be trade-off for using MEMORY-HOTPLUG/CMA?

> 
> > IMHO, get_user_pages isn't performance sensitive function. If user was sensitive
> > about it, he should have tried get_user_pages_fast.
> 
> That opens a different cans of works. get_user_pages is part of the
> gup_fast slowpath.
> 
> > THP degradation by increasing MIGRATE_UNMOVABLE?
> 
> The patch should not be converting MIGRATE_MOVABLE requests to
> MIGRATE_UNMOVABLE. I covered this in the review of v1.

I guess memory-hotplug guys want to use GUP_NM for long-time pin user.
So doesn't it make sense to migrate the page into MIGRATE_UNMOVABLE?
But I'm not sure GUP_NM's semantic.

> 
> > Lin said most of GUP pages release the page in short so is it really problem?
> > Even in embedded, we don't use THP yet but CMA and GUP call would be not too often
> > but failing of CMA would be critical.
> > 
> 
> To guarantee CMA can migrate pages pinned by drivers I think you need
> migrate-related callsbacks to unpin, barrier the driver until migration
> completes and repin.

I agree it's a ideal solution when we consider in future but as you already
mentioned, it's not easy for all drivers.
In fact, I don't want to insist on my opinion for CMA because I guess CMA
design is not good from the beginning.

I just posted my concern and want to discuss to solve the problem but
if there are not plain solution now, let me pass the decision to maintainer.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, Mel!

> 
> I do not know, or at least have no heard, of anyone working on such a
> scheme.
> 
> -- 
> Mel Gorman
> SUSE Labs
> 
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-- 
Kind regards,
Minchan Kim
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