Message-ID: <20130228200847.GD11360@redhat.com>
Date:	Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:08:47 -0500
From:	Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@...hat.com>
To:	Mimi Zohar <zohar@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
Cc:	linux kernel mailing list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: IMA: How to manage user space signing policy with others

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 02:23:39PM -0500, Mimi Zohar wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-02-28 at 10:13 -0500, Vivek Goyal wrote:
> > Hi Mimi,
> > 
> > I am running into issues w.r.t IMA policy management and user space
> > signing. So thought of dropping a mail and gather some ideas.
> > 
> > Currently IMA seems to able to one policy only which does not contain
> > conflicting rules. We have tcb policies in-built and they don't have
> > conflicting rules. User can put its own policy and that will replace
> > kernel policy (default policy). And then user is responsible for making
> > sure conflicting rules are not present.
> 
> The default integrity policy is a null policy, which can be replaced by
> specifying a boot command line option(s).  The integrity policy can be
> replaced once, with a policy of your choice.  Normally this would be
> done in the initramfs, before pivoting root.
> 
> > Now with user space signing and secureboot, I have another set of rules
> > which are not compatible with existing tcb policies. 
> 
> I know.  We've already discussed this
> http://marc.info/?l=linux-security-module&m=136131183031527&w=2.
> 
> > This is how my
> > rules look like as of today. These can change based on config options.
> > 
> > appraise func=BPRM_CHECK appraise_type=optional
> > appraise func=BPRM_POST_LOAD appraise_type=optional
> > 
> > These rules are not compatible with tcp appraise rule.
> > 
> > .action = APPRAISE,.fowner = GLOBAL_ROOT_UID,.flags = IMA_FOWNER
> > 
> > That means in current scheme of things, multiple policies can't co-exist
> > together. It has few  disadvantages.
> 
> No, it just means the merged policy needs to make sense.  The example you give
> doesn't.

How would we make sure merged policy makes sense. Especially when user
specifies its own policy.

> 
> I've already suggested that you define a builtin secureboot integrity
> policy, which is a subset of the ima_appraise_tcb policy.  If secureboot
> is enabled, then the secureboot integrity policy would be enabled by
> default, in lieu of the default null policy.
> 
> I would suggest that the ima_appraise_tcb, which is more restrictive, be
> permitted to replace the secureboot policy.

What about policies specified by writing into /sys/kernel/security/ima/policy
file. How would we know whether it is more restrictive or not.

> 
> > - If we want IMA to be central point for all integrity measurement
> >   needs, then having one policy only is very limiting.
> 
> So far, you haven't made a convincing case for supporting more than one
> policy.  If anything, you've made it very clear that merging policies
> needs to be well thought out.

I don't know how "policy" interface is being used. I don't want it to
overwrite my policies and then bad things happen.  Only policy I can
see in kernel that conflicts with my policy is ima_appraise_tcb. And
I agree, that policy seems to be restrictive enough that I can allow
it to replace my rules. But I can't say the same about arbitrary 
policy loaded by user.

So if I don't know what arbitrary policy user can load. 

> 
> >   The fact that
> >   user can overirde that policy makes it worse as then kernel can
> >   not impose any policy at all.
> 
> The kernel IS enforcing the specified integrity policy.
> 
> >   IOW, if user enables user space signign in kernel, say CONFIG_BIN_SIGN=y,
> >   then I need a way so that kernel can make sure IMA rules needed to
> >   ensure integrity of binaries are present and can not be overruled.
> 
> If you want to prohibit userspace from replacing the builtin policy, then
> provide a Kconfig option based on secureboot.

Ok, so create a kconfig option which disables loading policy from user
space? I am only worried about breaking other use cases very soon. For
example, in one of the mails you mentioned that with secureboot, somebody
might still be interested in looking at runtime hashes of processes
running.

So yes, I can do that but it is not something sustainable in long term.
This is more of a hack where if one use case is enabled, disable other
one automatically.

> 
> > - Disabling policy can disable certain features in kernel. So in this
> >   case if user overides default policy, it will disable binary signing
> >   feature also (that too in a very unintutive way).
> 
> Or, you can look at Kconfig options as a way of defining what is
> included in the build.  The policy defines what is enabled.

True, so all this is boiling down to disable loading user policies and
allow overide by ima_tcb_appraise based on kconfig options? So this can
be a problem for distributions because when they enable a kconfig option
to enable user space signing to cover kexec case, it will rule out any
body else loading their policies.

To me this is choosing one use case over other that too based on config
options. It might not be sustainable in long term.

>  
> > One possible way could be that we allow execution of all the relevant
> > rules in a policy and return the ANDed results of all the rules. But
> > this does not go well with the result caching. Atleast current IMA
> > infrastructure does not allow it and might require overhaul.
> 
> > In general I am concerned about increased performance overhead if we
> > allow multiple policies to co-exist. 
> > 
> > Performance overhead is a concern even without multiple policies. For
> > user space signing, IMA hooks will be called for file operations like
> > open(), mmap() etc and we don't require those to be called. I am not
> > sure if performance overhead is significant or not. Once things start
> > working, I will do some benchmarking.
> > 
> > But coming back to the point, how to go about making sure user space
> > signing policies can't be overridden if user has enabled user space
> > signing feature in kernel.
> 
> Vivek, there are multiple concurrent threads to this discussion. 

Yes, it is unfortunate.

> One
> thread discusses adding the 'optional' flag.  The other thread discusses
> defining a new hook to appraise the kernel image being loaded.  If the
> decision is to go forward with the latter, then this thread, using the
> 'optional' flag, becomes moot.

I think no.

- New hook is required so that we can call it after locking down the
  executable in memory. Even if we have a separate method/hook for
  bzImage verification, it does not take away the need for verifying
  /sbin/kexec excutable signature. Because apart from bzImage, that
  process loads lot more information like purgatory, bootparams and
  there is no way to verify signatures of those. So by verifying
  /sbin/kexec it is assumed that purgaotry and bootparams can be
  trusted because it is coming from a signed process.

So separate hook (bprm_post_load()) for executable verification and
a method to verify signature of bzImage are separate.

And "optional" flag we need because it makes sense to not lock down
whole of the user space. In a general purpose system it will not make
sense. 

> 
> With a new hook to verify kernel images, you would be able to define a
> single integrity rule, lets call the hook
> security/ima_kexec_image_check(), that would appraise the integrity of
> kernel images being loaded.  There wouldn't be a convoluted policy that
> verifies the signature of binaries, if it exists, yet permits all
> binaries to execute, except those that failed signature verification.
> You wouldn't need a new capability, nor rely on the signed binary to
> appraise the images being loaded.  If secureboot is enabled, the single
> secureboot integrity rule could be merged safely with other policies.

Hook for verifying bzImage does not take away the need to verify
/sbin/kexec executable because it loads other executable code in
kernel (purgatory) which is dynamically generated on the machine. So
by verifying /sbin/kexec we implicitly trust all the data process has
prepared.

Thanks
Vivek
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