Date:	Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:58:56 +0200
From:	Christian Ruppert <christian.ruppert@...lis.com>
To:	Wolfram Sang <wsa@...-dreams.de>
Cc:	Mika Westerberg <mika.westerberg@...ux.intel.com>,
	linux-i2c@...r.kernel.org,
	"Ben Dooks (embedded platforms)" <ben-linux@...ff.org>,
	Grant Likely <grant.likely@...retlab.ca>,
	Rob Herring <rob.herring@...xeda.com>,
	Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net>,
	devicetree-discuss@...ts.ozlabs.org, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@...opsys.com>,
	Pierrick Hascoet <pierrick.hascoet@...lis.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH REBASE] i2c-designware: make SDA hold time configurable

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:45:40AM +0200, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 04:47:45PM +0200, Christian Ruppert wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 05:29:55PM +0200, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 03:04:02PM +0200, Christian Ruppert wrote:
> > > > This patch makes the SDA hold time configurable through device tree.
> > > > 
> > > > [rebased to i2c-current/i2c-next/mainline-3.10-rc1]
> > > > 
> > > > Signed-off-by: Christian Ruppert <christian.ruppert@...lis.com>
> > > > Signed-off-by: Pierrick Hascoet <pierrick.hascoet@...lis.com>
> > > 
> > > Hmm, I really have problems adding a generic property. I need to better
> > > understand why this is needed? What is the usecase? Can't a safe value
> > > be calculated depending on the bus-speed? Is there a public datasheet
> > > available somewhere?
> > 
> > I checked with our PCB/Applications team and the data sheets for the
> > peripherals in question (DVB demodulator front ends) are under NDA.
> > Mika, you seem to be interested in this patch as well. Do you know of
> > any publicly available data sheets for hardware requiring this
> > adjustment?
> 
> So, I looked around and found:
> http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3268
> 
> which after thinking further about it gives me the following
> conclusions:
> 
> - sda-hold-time is a property/requirement of a device not following
>   the I2C spec. It is not a property of the master!

Actually, in a protocol like I2C, every device on the bus must respect
timing constraints like hold time etc. These parameters apply at the
same time to the master and to all slaves.

> - It should not be encoded in the devicetree, since the flaw is implicit
>   to the device, so only the driver needs to know about it. I wonder
>   about something like this in the i2c slave driver:
> 
> 	ret = i2c_request_sda_hold_time(client);
> 
>   The core then can collect the requests and forward them to the host
>   driver. This driver then can set up the hardware or return -EOPNOTSUPP
>   and we can even warn the user that there might be problems ahead.

This might be a solution but given that many I2C drivers are written as
an afterthought by device manufacturers and are released under more or
less open terms of licensing into the wild I doubt this would work very
well in practise.

> - I wonder if we really need to have a parameter time-in-ns? The
>   specs cleary say 300ns, so I'd think this is the value we should
>   always use. This is from a theorhetical pov though, maybe your
>   practical experience is different. What values do you need?

In reality, the I2C specification is more subtle than that: The "data
hold time" is specified as 0ns with a footnote [3] stating that devices
"must internally provide a hold time of at least 300ns for the SDA
signal...".

Revision 5 contains a relatively understandable explanation about how to
interpret this but earlier versions are less helpful. I think this
confusion is at the root of many timing issues encountered with I2C (and
the reason why Synopsys made this configurable). In fact, especially
earlier specs are _all but_ clear in this point and we cannot assume
that all peripherals were designed after Revision 5 was released in
October 2012.

> > In the case of the Designware block, the parameter both changes SDA and
> > START hold times, however, and you'll find lots of data sheets for
> > hardware with START hold time requirements on the net, e.g.
> > http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/21805B.pdf
> 
> What I couldn't find is a reference manual for a designware IP that
> supports sda hold time? I found some spear SoC which do not have that
> register, so that should surely be reflected in the patchset, too.

If you have access to DesignWare documentation, check out the
"DesignWare DW_apb_i2c Databook" Version 1.17a from March 2012.
Unluckily, I clearly don't have the right to share this document with
you. Do you know the version of the blocks in the spear SoC which do not
support this register?

> > The empirical solution in the function i2c_dw_scl_hcnt does not seem to
> > work in all cases: Our lab guys confirmed that we have several PCB
> > designs which do not work without adjusting the sda-hold-time parameter
> > to an appropriate value. The value seems to be different for different
> > PCBs.
> 
> I'd hope that 300ns is a safe value for all PCBs?

Not according to our PCB guys. The highest value I have found in a quick
check of our device trees is 650ns with others being just slightly above
300ns.

> > I suspect that this kind of configurability is not the same for all i2c
> > bus master hardware.
> 
> Yeah, maybe some do sda-holding by default? Dunno, never checked for
> that detail.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>    Wolfram
> 



-- 
  Christian Ruppert              ,          <christian.ruppert@...lis.com>
                                /|
  Tel: +41/(0)22 816 19-42     //|                 3, Chemin du Pré-Fleuri
                             _// | bilis Systems   CH-1228 Plan-les-Ouates
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