Message-ID: <20130713102350.GA8067@MacBook-Pro.local>
Date:	Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:23:51 +0100
From:	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>
To:	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>
Cc:	Morten Rasmussen <Morten.Rasmussen@....com>,
	"mingo@...nel.org" <mingo@...nel.org>,
	"arjan@...ux.intel.com" <arjan@...ux.intel.com>,
	"vincent.guittot@...aro.org" <vincent.guittot@...aro.org>,
	"preeti@...ux.vnet.ibm.com" <preeti@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	"alex.shi@...el.com" <alex.shi@...el.com>,
	"efault@....de" <efault@....de>, "pjt@...gle.com" <pjt@...gle.com>,
	"len.brown@...el.com" <len.brown@...el.com>,
	"corbet@....net" <corbet@....net>,
	"akpm@...ux-foundation.org" <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"torvalds@...ux-foundation.org" <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"tglx@...utronix.de" <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"linaro-kernel@...ts.linaro.org" <linaro-kernel@...ts.linaro.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/9] sched: Power scheduler design proposal

Hi Peter,

(Morten's away for a week, I'll try cover some bits in the meantime)

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 07:49:09AM +0100, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 09, 2013 at 04:55:29PM +0100, Morten Rasmussen wrote:
> > This patch set is an initial prototype aiming at the overall power-aware
> > scheduler design proposal that I previously described
> > <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1508480>.
> > 
> > The patch set introduces a cpu capacity managing 'power scheduler' which lives
> > by the side of the existing (process) scheduler. Its role is to monitor the
> > system load and decide which cpus that should be available to the process
> > scheduler.
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> This looks like a userspace hotplug deamon approach lifted to kernel space :/

The difference is that this is faster. We even had hotplug in mind some
years ago for big.LITTLE but it wouldn't give the performance we need
(hotplug is incredibly slow even if driven from the kernel).

> How about instead of layering over the load-balancer to constrain its behaviour
> you change the behaviour to not need constraint? Fix it so it does the right
> thing, instead of limiting it.
> 
> I don't think its _that_ hard to make the balancer do packing over spreading.
> The power balance code removed in 8e7fbcbc had things like that (although it
> was broken). And I'm sure I've seen patches over the years that did similar
> things. Didn't Vincent and Alex also do things like that?
> 
> We should take the good bits from all that and make something of it. And I
> think its easier now that we have the per task and per rq utilization numbers
> [1].

That's what we've been pushing for. From a big.LITTLE perspective, I
would probably vote for Vincent's patches but I guess we could probably
adapt any of the other options.

But then we got Ingo NAK'ing all these approaches. Taking the best bits
from the current load balancing patches would create yet another set of
patches which don't fall under Ingo's requirements (at least as I
understand them).

> Just start by changing the balancer to pack instead of spread. Once that works,
> see where the two modes diverge and put a knob in.

That's the approach we've had so far (not sure about the knob). But it
doesn't solve Ingo's complain about fragmentation between scheduler,
cpufreq and cpuidle policies.

> Then worry about power thingies.

To quote Ingo: "To create a new low level idle driver mechanism the
scheduler could use and integrate proper power saving / idle policy into
the scheduler."

That's unless we all agree (including Ingo) that the above requirement
is orthogonal to task packing and, as a *separate* project, we look at
better integrating the cpufreq/cpuidle with the scheduler, possibly with
a new driver model and governors as libraries used by such drivers. In
which case the current packing patches shouldn't be NAK'ed but reviewed
so that they can be improved further or rewritten.

> The integration of cpuidle and cpufreq should start by unifying all the
> statistics stuff. For cpuidle we need to pull in the per-cpu idle time
> guestimator. For cpufreq the per-cpu usage stuff -- which we already have in
> the scheduler these days!
> 
> Once we have all the statistics in place, its also easier to see what we can do
> with them and what might be missing.
> 
> At this point mandate that policy drivers may not do any statistics gathering
> of their own. If they feel the need to do so, we're missing something and
> that's not right.

I agree in general but there is the intel_pstate.c driver which has it's
own separate statistics that the scheduler does not track. We could move
to invariant task load tracking which uses aperf/mperf (and could do
similar things with perf counters on ARM). As I understand from Arjan,
the new pstate driver will be different, so we don't know exactly what
it requires.

> I'm not entirely sold on differentiating between short running and other tasks
> either. Although I suppose I see where that comes from. A task that would run
> 50% on a big core would unlikely be qualified as small, however if it would
> require 85% of a small core and there's room on the small cores its a good move
> to run it there.
> 
> So where's the limit for being small? It seems like an artificial limit and
> such should be avoided where possible.

I agree. With Morten's approach, it doesn't care about how small a task
is but rather when a CPU (or cluster) is loaded to a certain threshold,
just spread tasks to the next. I think small task threshold on its own
doesn't make much sense if you have lots of such 'small' tasks, so you
need a view of the overall load or a more dynamic threshold.

-- 
Catalin
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