Message-ID: <1380663871.645.44.camel@pasglop>
Date:	Wed, 02 Oct 2013 07:44:31 +1000
From:	Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@...nel.crashing.org>
To:	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>
Cc:	Gleb Natapov <gleb@...hat.com>,
	Michael Ellerman <michael@...erman.id.au>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Paul Mackerras <paulus@...ba.org>,
	agraf@...e.de, mpm@...enic.com, herbert@...dor.hengli.com.au,
	linuxppc-dev@...abs.org, kvm@...r.kernel.org,
	kvm-ppc@...r.kernel.org, tytso@....edu
Subject: Re: [PATCH 3/3] KVM: PPC: Book3S: Add support for hwrng found on
 some powernv systems

On Tue, 2013-10-01 at 13:19 +0200, Paolo Bonzini wrote:
> Il 01/10/2013 11:38, Benjamin Herrenschmidt ha scritto:
> > So for the sake of that dogma you are going to make us do something that
> > is about 100 times slower ? (and possibly involves more lines of code)
> 
> If it's 100 times slower there is something else that's wrong.  It's
> most likely not 100 times slower, and this makes me wonder if you or
> Michael actually timed the code at all.

We haven't but it's pretty obvious:

 - The KVM real mode implementation: guest issues the hcall, we remain
in real mode, within the MMU context of the guest, all secondary threads
on the core are still running in the guest, and we do an MMIO & return.

 - The qemu variant: guest issues the hcall we need to exit the guest,
which means bring *all* threads on the core out of KVM, switch the full
MMU context back to host (which among others involves flushing the ERAT,
aka level 1 TLB), while sending the secondary threads into idle loops.
Then we return to qemu user context, which will then use /dev/random ->
back into the kernel and out, at which point we can return to the guest,
so back into the kernel, back into run which means IPI the secondary
threads on the core, switch the MMU context again until we can finally
go back to executing guest instructions.

So no we haven't measured. But it is going to be VERY VERY VERY much
slower. Our exit latencies are bad with our current MMU *and* any exit
is going to cause all secondary threads on the core to have to exit as
well (remember P7 is 4 threads, P8 is 8)

> > It's not just speed ... H_RANDOM is going to be called by the guest
> > kernel. A round trip to qemu is going to introduce a kernel jitter
> > (complete stop of operations of the kernel on that virtual processor) of
> > a full exit + round trip to qemu + back to the kernel to get to some
> > source of random number ...  this is going to be in the dozens of ns at
> > least.
> 
> I guess you mean dozens of *micro*seconds, which is somewhat exaggerated
> but not too much.  On x86 some reasonable timings are:

Yes.

>   100 cycles            bare metal rdrand
>   2000 cycles           guest->hypervisor->guest
>   15000 cycles          guest->userspace->guest
> 
> (100 cycles = 40 ns = 200 MB/sec; 2000 cycles = ~1 microseconds; 15000
> cycles = ~7.5 microseconds).  Even on 5 year old hardware, a userspace
> roundtrip is around a dozen microseconds.

So in your case going to qemu to "emulate" rdrand would indeed be 150
times slower, I don't see in what universe that would be considered a
good idea.

> Anyhow, I would like to know more about this hwrng and hypercall.
> 
> Does the hwrng return random numbers (like rdrand) or real entropy (like
> rdseed that Intel will add in Broadwell)?

It's a random number obtained from sampling a set of oscillators. It's
slightly biased but we have very simple code (I believe shared with the
host kernel implementation) for whitening it as is required by PAPR.
 
>   What about the hypercall?
> For example virtio-rng is specified to return actual entropy, it doesn't
> matter if it is from hardware or software.
> 
> In either case, the patches have problems.
> 
> 1) If the hwrng returns random numbers, the whitening you're doing is
> totally insufficient and patch 2 is forging entropy that doesn't exist.

I will let Paul to comment on the whitening, it passes all the tests
we've been running it through.

> 2) If the hwrng returns entropy, a read from the hwrng is going to even
> more expensive than an x86 rdrand (perhaps ~2000 cycles).

Depends how often you read, the HW I think is sampling asynchronously so
you only block on the MMIO if you already consumed the previous sample
but I'll let Paulus provide more details here.

>   Hence, doing
> the emulation in the kernel is even less necessary.  Also, if the hwrng
> returns entropy patch 1 is unnecessary: you do not need to waste
> precious entropy bits by passing them to arch_get_random_long; just run
> rngd in the host as that will put the entropy to much better use.
>
> 3) If the hypercall returns random numbers, then it is a pretty
> braindead interface since returning 8 bytes at a time limits the
> throughput to a handful of MB/s (compare to 200 MB/sec for x86 rdrand).
>  But more important: in this case drivers/char/hw_random/pseries-rng.c
> is completely broken and insecure, just like patch 2 in case (1) above.

How so ?

> 4) If the hypercall returns entropy (same as virtio-rng), the same
> considerations on speed apply.  If you can only produce entropy at say 1
> MB/s (so reading 8 bytes take 8 microseconds---which is actually very
> fast), it doesn't matter that much to spend 7 microseconds on a
> userspace roundtrip.  It's going to be only half the speed of bare
> metal, not 100 times slower.
> 
> 
> Also, you will need _anyway_ extra code that is not present here to
> either disable the rng based on userspace command-line, or to emulate
> the rng from userspace.  It is absolutely _not_ acceptable to have a
> hypercall disappear across migration.  You're repeatedly ignoring these
> issues, but rest assured that they will come back and bite you
> spectacularly.
> 
> Based on all this, I would simply ignore the part of the spec where they
> say "the hypercall should return numbers from a hardware source".  All
> that matters in virtualization is to have a good source of _entropy_.
> Then you can run rngd without randomness checks, which will more than
> recover the cost of userspace roundtrips.
> 
> In any case, deciding where to get that entropy from is definitely
> outside the scope of KVM, and in fact QEMU already has a configurable
> mechanism for that.
>
> Paolo
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm-ppc" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html


--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Powered by blists - more mailing lists