Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 2013 12:36:41 +0100
From:	Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.cz>
To:	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>
Cc:	Luigi Semenzato <semenzato@...gle.com>,
	David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>, linux-mm@...ck.org,
	Greg Thelen <gthelen@...gle.com>,
	Glauber Costa <glommer@...il.com>,
	Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	Joern Engel <joern@...fs.org>, Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: user defined OOM policies

On Fri 22-11-13 13:08:35, Johannes Weiner wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:03:33PM -0800, Luigi Semenzato wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:36 PM, David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Luigi Semenzato wrote:
> > >
> > >> Chrome OS uses a custom low-memory notification to minimize OOM kills.
> > >>  When the notifier triggers, the Chrome browser tries to free memory,
> > >> including by shutting down processes, before the full OOM occurs.  But
> > >> OOM kills cannot always be avoided, depending on the speed of
> > >> allocation and how much CPU the freeing tasks are able to use
> > >> (certainly they could be given higher priority, but it get complex).
> > >>
> > >> We may end up using memcg so we can use the cgroup
> > >> memory.pressure_level file instead of our own notifier, but we have no
> > >> need for finer control over OOM kills beyond the very useful kill
> > >> priority.  One process at a time is good enough for us.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Even with your own custom low-memory notifier or memory.pressure_level,
> > > it's still possible that all memory is depleted and you run into an oom
> > > kill before your userspace had a chance to wakeup and prevent it.  I think
> > > what you'll want is either your custom notifier of memory.pressure_level
> > > to do pre-oom freeing but fallback to a userspace oom handler that
> > > prevents kernel oom kills until it ensures userspace did everything it
> > > could to free unneeded memory, do any necessary logging, etc, and do so
> > > over a grace period of memory.oom_delay_millisecs before the kernel
> > > eventually steps in and kills.
> > 
> > Yes, I agree that we can't always prevent OOM situations, and in fact
> > we tolerate OOM kills, although they have a worse impact on the users
> > than controlled freeing does.
> > 
> > Well OK here it goes.  I hate to be a party-pooper, but the notion of
> > a user-level OOM-handler scares me a bit for various reasons.
> > 
> > 1. Our custom notifier sends low-memory warnings well ahead of memory
> > depletion.  If we don't have enough time to free memory then, what can
> > the last-minute OOM handler do?
> >
> > 2. In addition to the time factor, it's not trivial to do anything,
> > including freeing memory, without allocating memory first, so we'll
> > need a reserve, but how much, and who is allowed to use it?
> > 
> > 3. How does one select the OOM-handler timeout?  If the freeing paths
> > in the code are swapped out, the time needed to bring them in can be
> > highly variable.
> > 
> > 4. Why wouldn't the OOM-handler also do the killing itself?  (Which is
> > essentially what we do.)  Then all we need is a low-memory notifier
> > which can predict how quickly we'll run out of memory.
> > 
> > 5. The use case mentioned earlier (the fact that the killing of one
> > process can make an entire group of processes useless) can be dealt
> > with using OOM priorities and user-level code.
> 
> I would also be interested in the answers to all these questions.
> 
> > I confess I am surprised that the OOM killer works as well as I think
> > it does.  Adding a user-level component would bring a whole new level
> > of complexity to code that's already hard to fully comprehend, and
> > might not really address the fundamental issues.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> OOM killing is supposed to be a last resort and should be avoided as
> much as possible.  The situation is so precarious at this point that
> the thought of involving USERSPACE to fix it seems crazy to me.

Please remember that this discussion is about User/Admin defined policy
for OOM killer. Not necessarily user space handling of global OOM.

I am skeptical to userspace handler as well but I admit that there might
be usecases where this is doable. But let's focus on the proper
interface for the policies (aka what kind of action should be taken
under OOM - kill process, group, reboot, etc...).

> It would make much more sense to me to focus on early notifications
> and deal with looming situations while we still have the resources to
> do so.

We already have those at least in the memcg world (vmpressure).

> Before attempting to build a teleportation device in the kernel, maybe
> we should just stop painting ourselves into corners?

-- 
Michal Hocko
SUSE Labs
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