Message-ID: <20131209223734.GJ21724@cmpxchg.org>
Date:	Mon, 9 Dec 2013 17:37:34 -0500
From:	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>
To:	David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>
Cc:	Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.cz>,
	KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki <kamezawa.hiroyu@...fujitsu.com>,
	Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>, Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	Pekka Enberg <penberg@...nel.org>,
	Christoph Lameter <cl@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Li Zefan <lizefan@...wei.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-mm@...ck.org, cgroups@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [patch 7/8] mm, memcg: allow processes handling oom
 notifications to access reserves

On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 12:10:44PM -0800, David Rientjes wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2013, Tejun Heo wrote:
> 
> > > Tejun, how are you?
> > 
> > Doing pretty good.  How's yourself? :)
> > 
> 
> Not bad, busy with holidays and all that.
> 
> > > I agree that we wouldn't need such support if we are only addressing memcg 
> > > oom conditions.  We could do things like A/memory.limit_in_bytes == 128M 
> > > and A/b/memory.limit_in_bytes == 126MB and then attach the process waiting 
> > > on A/b/memory.oom_control to A and that would work perfect.
> > 
> > Or even just create a separate parallel cgroup A/memory.limit_in_bytes
> > == 126M A-oom/memory.limit_in_bytes = 2M and avoid the extra layer of
> > nesting.
> > 
> 
> Indeed.  The setup I'm specifically trying to attack is where the sum of 
> the limits of all non-oom handling memcgs (A/b in my model, A in yours) 
> exceed the amount of RAM.  If the system has 256MB,
> 
> 				/=256MB
> 	A=126MB		A-oom=2MB	B=188MB		B-oom=4MB
> 
> or
> 
> 			/=256MB
> 	C=128MB				D=192MB
> 	C/a=126M			D/a=188MB
> 
> then it's possible for A + B or C/a + D/a to cause a system oom condition 
> and meanwhile A-oom/tasks, B-oom/tasks, C/tasks, and D/tasks cannot 
> allocate memory to handle it.

So your per-memcg handlers want access to PHYSICAL MEMORY reserves
during system-wide OOM, but this patch implements MEMORY CHARGE
reserves only, which are obviously meaningless during system-wide OOM.

In other words, this is an entirely different usecase than what this
patchset is really about.

You have to sell us on the problem first, then we can discuss a
solution.  Instead, you insist on the solution and keep changing the
problem whenever we find it no longer justifies your proposal.

> > > However, we also need to discuss system oom handling.  We have an interest 
> > > in being able to allow userspace to handle system oom conditions since the 
> > > policy will differ depending on machine and we can't encode every possible 
> > > mechanism into the kernel.  For example, on system oom we want to kill a 
> > > process from the lowest priority top-level memcg.  We lack that ability 
> > > entirely in the kernel and since the sum of our top-level memcgs 
> > > memory.limit_in_bytes exceeds the amount of present RAM, we run into these 
> > > oom conditions a _lot_.
> > > 
> > > So the first step, in my opinion, is to add a system oom notification on 
> > > the root memcg's memory.oom_control which currently allows registering an 
> > > eventfd() notification but never actually triggers.  I did that in a patch 
> > > and it is was merged into -mm but was pulled out for later discussion.
> > 
> > Hmmm... this seems to be a different topic.  You're saying that it'd
> > be beneficial to add userland oom handling at the sytem level and if
> > that happens having per-memcg oom reserve would be consistent with the
> > system-wide one, right?
> 
> Right, and apologies for not discussing the system oom handling here since 
> its notification on the root memcg is currently being debated as well.  
> The idea is that admins and users aren't going to be concerned about 
> memory allocation through the page allocator vs memory charging through 
> the memory controller; they simply want memory for their userspace oom 
> handling.  And since the notification would be tied to the root memcg, it 
> makes sense to make the amount of memory allowed to allocate exclusively 
> for these handlers a memcg interface.  So the cleanest solution, in my 
> opinion, was to add the interface as part of memcg.
> 
> > While I can see some merit in that argument,
> > the whole thing is predicated on system level userland oom handling
> > being justified && even then I'm not quite sure whether "consistent
> > interface" is enough to have oom reserve in all memory cgroups.  It
> > feels a bit backwards because, here, the root memcg is the exception,
> > not the other way around.  Root is the only one which can't put oom
> > handler in a separate cgroup, so it could make more sense to special
> > case that rather than spreading the interface for global userland oom
> > to everyone else.
> > 
> 
> It's really the same thing, though, from the user perspective.  They don't 
> care about page allocation failure vs memcg charge failure, they simply 
> want to ensure that the memory set aside for memory.oom_reserve_in_bytes 
> is available in oom conditions.  With the suggested alternatives:
> 
> 				/=256MB
> 	A=126MB		A-oom=2MB	B=188MB		B-oom=4MB
> 
> or
> 
> 			/=256MB
> 	C=128MB				D=192MB
> 	C/a=126M			D/a=188MB
> 
> we can't distinguish between what is able to allocate below per-zone min 
> watermarks in the page allocator as the oom reserve.  The key point is 
> that the root memcg is not the only memcg concerned with page allocator 
> memory reserves, it's any oom reserve.  If A's usage is 124MB and B's 
> usage is 132MB, we can't specify that processes attached to B-oom should 
> be able to bypass per-zone min watermarks without an interface such as 
> that being proposed.

The per-zone min watermarks are there to allow rudimentary OOM
handling inside the kernel to prevent a complete deadlock.

You want to hand them out to an indefinite number of (untrusted?)
userspace tasks in the hope that they handle the situation?

Also, the following concerns from Tejun still apply:

> > The thing is OOM handling in userland is an inherently fragile thing
> > and it can *never* replace kernel OOM handling.  You may reserve any
> > amount of memory you want but there would still be cases that it may
> > fail.  It's not like we have owner-based allocation all through the
> > kernel or are willing to pay overhead for such thing.  Even if that
> > part can be guaranteed somehow (no idea how), the kernel still can
> > NEVER trust the userland OOM handler.  No matter what we do, we need a
> > kernel OOM handler with no resource dependency.

Your userspace handler may very much fail, but it may have squandered
all the resources for the kernel fallback handling to actually perform
its job.

I don't know if you are actually allowing every PF_OOM_HANDLER to
simply bypass the watermarks in your kernels, but this seems way too
fragile for upstream.

> > But, before that, system level userland OOM handling sounds scary to
> > me.  I thought about userland OOM handling for memcgs and it does make
> > some sense.  ie. there is a different action that userland oom handler
> > can take which kernel oom handler can't - it can expand the limit of
> > the offending cgroup, effectively using OOM handler as a sizing
> > estimator.  I'm not sure whether that in itself is a good idea but
> > then again it might not be possible to clearly separate out sizing
> > from oom conditions.
> > 
> > Anyways, but for system level OOM handling, there's no other action
> > userland handler can take.  It's not like the OOM handler paging the
> > admin to install more memory is a reasonable mode of operation to
> > support.  The *only* action userland OOM handler can take is killing
> > something.  Now, if that's the case and we have kernel OOM handler
> > anyway, I think the best course of action is improving kernel OOM
> > handler and teach it to make the decisions that the userland handler
> > would consider good.  That should be doable, right?
> > 
> 
> It's much more powerful than that; you're referring to the mechanism to 
> guarantee future memory freeing so the system or memcg is no longer oom, 
> and that's only one case of possible handling.  I have a customer who 
> wants to save heap profiles at the time of oom as well, for example, and 
> their sole desire is to be able to capture memory statistics before the 
> oom kill takes place.  The sine qua non is that memory reserves allow 
> something to be done in such conditions: if you try to do a "ps" or "ls" 
> or cat a file in an oom memcg, you hang.

This is conflating per-memcg OOM handling and global OOM handling.
You can always ps or ls from outside to analyze a memcg OOM and we
have established that there is no good reason to try doing it from
inside the OOM group.

> We need better functionality to ensure that we can do some action
> prior to the oom kill itself, whether that comes from userspace or
> the kernel.  We simply cannot rely on things like memory thresholds
> or vmpressure to grab these heap profiles, there is no guarantee
> that memory will not be exhausted and the oom kill would already
> have taken place before the process handling the notification wakes
> up.  (And any argument that it is possible by simply making the
> threshold happen early enough is a non-starter: it does not
> guarantee the heaps are collected for oom conditions and the oom
> kill can still occur prematurely in machines that overcommit their
> memcg limits, as we do.)
> 
> > The thing is OOM handling in userland is an inherently fragile thing
> > and it can *never* replace kernel OOM handling.  You may reserve any
> > amount of memory you want but there would still be cases that it may
> > fail.  It's not like we have owner-based allocation all through the
> > kernel or are willing to pay overhead for such thing.  Even if that
> > part can be guaranteed somehow (no idea how), the kernel still can
> > NEVER trust the userland OOM handler.  No matter what we do, we need a
> > kernel OOM handler with no resource dependency.
> > 
> 
> I was never an advocate for the current memory.oom_control behavior that 
> allows you to disable the oom killer indefinitely for a memcg and I agree 
> that it is dangerous if userspace will not cause future memory freeing or 
> toggle the value such that the kernel will kill something.

This is again confusing system-wide OOM with per-memcg OOM.  Disabling
the per-memcg OOM handler is perfectly fine because any memory demand
from higher up the hierarchy will still kill in such a group.  The
problems Tejun describe are only existant in userspace handling of
system-wide OOM situations.  Which is the thing you are advocating,
not what we currently have.

> So I agree with you with today's functionality, not with the
> functionality that this patchset, and the notification on the root
> memcg for system oom conditions, provides.  I also proposed a
> memory.oom_delay_millisecs that we have used for several years
> dating back to even cpusets that simply delays the oom kill such
> that userspace can do "something" like send a kill itself, collect
> heap profiles, send a signal to our malloc() implementation to free
> arena memory, etc. prior to the kernel oom kill.
> 
> > So, there isn't anything userland OOM handler can inherently do better
> > and we can't do away with kernel handler no matter what.  On both
> > accounts, it seems like the best course of action is making
> > system-wide kernel OOM handler to make better decisions if possible at
> > all.  If that's impossible, let's first think about why that's the
> > case before hastly opening this new can of worms.
> > 
> 
> We certainly can get away with the kernel oom killer in 99% of cases with 
> this functionality for users who choose to have their own oom handling 
> implementations.  We also can't possibly code every single handling policy 
> into the kernel: we can't guarantee that our version of malloc() is 
> guaranteed to be able to free memory back to the kernel when waking up on 
> a memory.oom_control notification prior to the memcg oom killer killing 
> something, for example, without this functionality.

If you have discardable anonymous memory laying around the volatile
memory patches are a much more reliable way of getting rid of it than
to wake up a userspace task and wait & pray a few seconds.

Page reclaim has been *the* tool to facilitate overcommit for decades
while OOM killing has always been a last-resort measure.  Why is this
not good enough anymore and why is the only solution to give up and do
it all in userspace?
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