Message-ID: <CACRpkdap8GpdwMbj-H+UNA_KH60tQ+2uYznTKJgOE3AFdy3JvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:05:01 +0100
From:	Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@...aro.org>
To:	Laszlo Papp <lpapp@....org>
Cc:	Guenter Roeck <linux@...ck-us.net>,
	Lee Jones <lee.jones@...aro.org>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Jon Corbet <corbet@....net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 3/3] gpio: MAX6650/6651 support

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Laszlo Papp <lpapp@....org> wrote:

[CC:ing Jon Corbet on this as he's better at the consensus process
and may correct me here.]

> I have just had a quick look and I am now worried.... It seems that
> the pinctrl system was not as mature in 3.2 that I need to support as
> these days... The short term task of mine is to get it working for
> that release, and trying to upstream all this is an additional
> bonus....

I am just a community maintainer, I do not worry very much about
your company's infatuation with ancient kernel releases, so please
do not bring such issues to us. We only develop and worry about
the mainline kernel, Torvald's HEAD, with stability fixes going into
the -stable kernels (not new stuff like this).

> Hence, my question is: would it be acceptable to leave the gpio
> functionality clearly separate and keep the pinctrl functionality on
> top of it?

What do you mean?

These are two orthogonal subsystems with some GPIO-to-pin
criss-cross APIs, I'm just asking that you implement both APIs:
GPIO and pin control.

Please look at other combined drivers in drivers/pinctrl
and you will see what I mean.

> Failing that, is it somehow possible to get this functionality nicely
> working with both versions?

The kernel development process is not suited to such things.
This is not how we work, we don't want people to develop
*new features* on old kernels, that is just insane.

> The definite target is 3.2.1 for us as of now.

I'm sorry to tell you that your organization does not understand
how the mainline community develop new features. If you want to
work with the community you develop new features on the HEAD,
last kernel release (v3.12, soon v3.13) or directly on top of the
pin control development tree in this case.

The fact that some person or function in your company think it
is a good idea to base development on kernel v3.2.x does not
concern me, nor anyone else in the community.

I mean, of course it is interesting to know odd stuff about the
remote corners of kernel development, but it doesn't influence our
behavior.

> I would appreciate any suggestion about it. The pinctrl system was
> introduced in 3.1 if I am not mistaken, and 3.2 has lotta less drivers
> around, etc... Not quite sure about the core foundation though.

If a company decides to work on a fork from the community
that is their problem, basically. Then they assume all forward-porting
and maintenance costs, sometimes also a huge cost of
backward-porting entire subsystems and an increasing threshold
to migrate to new kernel releases as time goes by.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad decision for the company,
but it means forking and disconnecting from the community,
we will not come around and work like you do.

I have seen this behaviour in many companies, and what they
typically do not realize is that working this way comes with a
cost because they are still dependent on new features only
developed upstream and they often do not realize the issue of
escalting maintenance cost as the fork widens over time.

Then we have the ontology problem:
The suggestion from any system manager (or similar
function/role) in an organization that they want to lock down
development to a certain older kernel version that "they know
is stable" or "have agreed upon" or something like that is a
complete fallacy, they are not the architects and developers of
the Linux kernel and they are not competent to make such
statements, to put one thing very clear.

The only people that can make such statements you will find
in the MAINTAINERS file of the kernel and that's it. Very simple.
Usually they will tell you to do your development on the very
latest kernel.

It might be that someone pays your wages to work and think
counter to this very simple rule, but that is another thing, that
is not the truth or the way the world works, it is just a power
relation in the working place and while I do realize that this is a
fact of life, it doesn't change the way the community works.

Yours,
Linus Walleij
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