linux-kernel - Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework

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Message-ID: <1392922421.28840.36.camel@triegel.csb>
Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:53:41 +0100
From:	Torvald Riegel <triegel@...hat.com>
To:	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Cc:	Paul McKenney <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Ramana Radhakrishnan <Ramana.Radhakrishnan@....com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
	"linux-arch@...r.kernel.org" <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"akpm@...ux-foundation.org" <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"mingo@...nel.org" <mingo@...nel.org>,
	"gcc@....gnu.org" <gcc@....gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework

On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:32 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote: 
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Paul E. McKenney
> <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
> >
> > You really need that "consume" to be "acquire".
> 
> So I think we now all agree that that is what the standard is saying.

Huh?

The standard says that there are two separate things (among many more):
mo_acquire and mo_consume.  They both influence happens-before in
different (and independent!) ways.

What Paul is saying is that *you* should have used *acquire* in that
example.

> And I'm saying that that is wrong, that the standard is badly written,
> and should be fixed.
> 
> Because before the standard is fixed, I claim that "consume" is
> unusable. We cannot trust it. End of story.

Then we still have all the rest.  Let's just ignore mo_consume for now,
and look at mo_acquire, I suggest.

> The fact that apparently gcc is currently buggy because it got the
> dependency calculations *wrong* just reinforces my point.

Well, I'm pretty sure nobody actually worked on trying to preserve the
dependencies at all.  IOW, I suspect this fell through the cracks.  We
can ask the person working on this if you really want to know.

> The gcc bug Torvald pointed at is exactly because the current C
> standard is illogical unreadable CRAP.

It's obviously logically consistent to the extent that it can be
represented by a formal specification such as the one by the Cambridge
group.  Makes sense, or not?

> I can guarantee that what
> happened is:
> 
>  - the compiler saw that the result of the read was used as the left
> hand expression of the ternary "? :" operator
> 
>  - as a result, the compiler decided that there's no dependency
> 
>  - the compiler didn't think about the dependency that comes from the
> result of the load *also* being used as the middle part of the ternary
> expression, because it had optimized it away, despite the standard not
> talking about that at all.
> 
>  - so the compiler never saw the dependency that the standard talks about
> 
> BECAUSE THE STANDARD LANGUAGE IS PURE AND UTTER SHIT.

Please, be specific.  Right now you're saying that all of it is useless.
Which is arguable not true.

> My suggested language never had any of these problems, because *my*
> suggested semantics are clear, logical, and don't have these kinds of
> idiotic pit-falls.

Have you looked at and understood the semantics of the memory model
(e.g. in the formalized form) with mo_consume and related being ignored
(ie, just ignore 6.13 and 6.14 in n3132)?


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