Message-ID: <1393093837.28840.4834.camel@triegel.csb>
Date:	Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:30:37 +0100
From:	Torvald Riegel <triegel@...hat.com>
To:	paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com
Cc:	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Ramana Radhakrishnan <Ramana.Radhakrishnan@....com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
	"linux-arch@...r.kernel.org" <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"akpm@...ux-foundation.org" <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"mingo@...nel.org" <mingo@...nel.org>,
	"gcc@....gnu.org" <gcc@....gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework

On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:18 -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 06:26:08PM +0100, Torvald Riegel wrote:
> > xagsmtp2.20140220172700.0416@...dvm4.vnet.ibm.com
> > X-Xagent-Gateway: vmsdvm4.vnet.ibm.com (XAGSMTP2 at VMSDVM4)
> > 
> > On Wed, 2014-02-19 at 20:01 -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 04:53:49PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Torvald Riegel <triegel@...hat.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 2014-02-18 at 09:44 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Can you point to it? Because I can find a draft standard, and it sure
> > > > >> as hell does *not* contain any clarity of the model. It has a *lot* of
> > > > >> verbiage, but it's pretty much impossible to actually understand, even
> > > > >> for somebody who really understands memory ordering.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mjb220/n3132.pdf
> > > > > This has an explanation of the model up front, and then the detailed
> > > > > formulae in Section 6.  This is from 2010, and there might have been
> > > > > smaller changes since then, but I'm not aware of any bigger ones.
> > > > 
> > > > Ahh, this is different from what others pointed at. Same people,
> > > > similar name, but not the same paper.
> > > > 
> > > > I will read this version too, but from reading the other one and the
> > > > standard in parallel and trying to make sense of it, it seems that I
> > > > may have originally misunderstood part of the whole control dependency
> > > > chain.
> > > > 
> > > > The fact that the left side of "? :", "&&" and "||" breaks data
> > > > dependencies made me originally think that the standard tried very
> > > > hard to break any control dependencies. Which I felt was insane, when
> > > > then some of the examples literally were about the testing of the
> > > > value of an atomic read. The data dependency matters quite a bit. The
> > > > fact that the other "Mathematical" paper then very much talked about
> > > > consume only in the sense of following a pointer made me think so even
> > > > more.
> > > > 
> > > > But reading it some more, I now think that the whole "data dependency"
> > > > logic (which is where the special left-hand side rule of the ternary
> > > > and logical operators come in) are basically an exception to the rule
> > > > that sequence points end up being also meaningful for ordering (ok, so
> > > > C11 seems to have renamed "sequence points" to "sequenced before").
> > > > 
> > > > So while an expression like
> > > > 
> > > >     atomic_read(p, consume) ? a : b;
> > > > 
> > > > doesn't have a data dependency from the atomic read that forces
> > > > serialization, writing
> > > > 
> > > >    if (atomic_read(p, consume))
> > > >       a;
> > > >    else
> > > >       b;
> > > > 
> > > > the standard *does* imply that the atomic read is "happens-before" wrt
> > > > "a", and I'm hoping that there is no question that the control
> > > > dependency still acts as an ordering point.
> > > 
> > > The control dependency should order subsequent stores, at least assuming
> > > that "a" and "b" don't start off with identical stores that the compiler
> > > could pull out of the "if" and merge.  The same might also be true for ?:
> > > for all I know.  (But see below)
> > 
> > I don't think this is quite true.  I agree that a conditional store will
> > not be executed speculatively (note that if it would happen in both the
> > then and the else branch, it's not conditional); so, the store in
> > "a;" (assuming it would be a store) won't happen unless the thread can
> > really observe a true value for p.  However, this is *this thread's*
> > view of the world, but not guaranteed to constrain how any other thread
> > sees the state.  mo_consume does not contribute to
> > inter-thread-happens-before in the same way that mo_acquire does (which
> > *does* put a constraint on i-t-h-b, and thus enforces a global
> > constraint that all threads have to respect).
> > 
> > Is it clear which distinction I'm trying to show here?
> 
> If you are saying that the control dependencies are a result of a
> combination of the standard and the properties of the hardware that
> Linux runs on, I am with you.  (As opposed to control dependencies being
> a result solely of the standard.)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean :)  Do you mean the
control dependencies in the binary code, or the logical "control
dependencies" in source programs?

> This was a deliberate decision in 2007 or so.  At that time, the
> documentation on CPU memory orderings were pretty crude, and it was
> not clear that all relevant hardware respected control dependencies.
> Back then, if you wanted an authoritative answer even to a fairly simple
> memory-ordering question, you had to find a hardware architect, and you
> probably waited weeks or even months for the answer.  Thanks to lots
> of work from the Cambridge guys at about the time that the standard was
> finalized, we have a much better picture of what the hardware does.

But this part I understand.

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