Message-ID: <20140407054840.GC12144@bbox>
Date:	Mon, 7 Apr 2014 14:48:40 +0900
From:	Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>
To:	John Stultz <john.stultz@...aro.org>
Cc:	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>, Dave Hansen <dave@...1.net>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Android Kernel Team <kernel-team@...roid.com>,
	Robert Love <rlove@...gle.com>, Mel Gorman <mel@....ul.ie>,
	Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	Dmitry Adamushko <dmitry.adamushko@...il.com>,
	Neil Brown <neilb@...e.de>,
	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>,
	Mike Hommey <mh@...ndium.org>, Taras Glek <tglek@...illa.com>,
	Jan Kara <jack@...e.cz>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...il.com>,
	Michel Lespinasse <walken@...gle.com>,
	"linux-mm@...ck.org" <linux-mm@...ck.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/5] Volatile Ranges (v12) & LSF-MM discussion fodder

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 10:40:16AM -0700, John Stultz wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 09:12:44PM -0700, John Stultz wrote:
> >> On 04/01/2014 04:01 PM, Dave Hansen wrote:
> >> > On 04/01/2014 02:35 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> >> >> On 04/01/2014 02:21 PM, Johannes Weiner wrote:
> >> > John, this was something that the Mozilla guys asked for, right?  Any
> >> > idea why this isn't ever a problem for them?
> >> So one of their use cases for it is for library text. Basically they
> >> want to decompress a compressed library file into memory. Then they plan
> >> to mark the uncompressed pages volatile, and then be able to call into
> >> it. Ideally for them, the kernel would only purge cold pages, leaving
> >> the hot pages in memory. When they traverse a purged page, they handle
> >> the SIGBUS and patch the page up.
> >
> > How big are these libraries compared to overall system size?
> 
> Mike or Taras would have to refresh my memory on this detail. My
> recollection is it mostly has to do with keeping the on-disk size of
> the library small, so it can load off of slow media very quickly.
> 
> >> Now.. this is not what I'd consider a normal use case, but was hoping to
> >> illustrate some of the more interesting uses and demonstrate the
> >> interfaces flexibility.
> >
> > I'm just dying to hear a "normal" use case then. :)
> 
> So the more "normal" use cause would be marking objects volatile and
> then non-volatile w/o accessing them in-between. In this case the
> zero-fill vs SIGBUS semantics don't really matter, its really just a
> trade off in how we handle applications deviating (intentionally or
> not) from this use case.
> 
> So to maybe flesh out the context here for folks who are following
> along (but weren't in the hallway at LSF :),  Johannes made a fairly
> interesting proposal (Johannes: Please correct me here where I'm maybe
> slightly off here) to use only the dirty bits of the ptes to mark a
> page as volatile. Then the kernel could reclaim these clean pages as
> it needed, and when we marked the range as non-volatile, the pages
> would be re-dirtied and if any of the pages were missing, we could

I'd like to know more clearly as Hannes and you are thinking.
You mean that when we unmark the range, we should redirty of all of
pages's pte? or SetPageDirty?
If we redirty pte, maybe softdirty people(ie, CRIU) might be angry
because it could make lots of diff.
If we just do SetPageDirty, it would invalidate writeout-avoid logic
of swapped page which were already on the swap. Yeb, but it could
be minor and SetPageDirty model would be proper for shared-vrange
implmenetation. But how could we know any pages were missing
when unmarking time? Where do we keep the information?
It's no problem for vrange-anon because we can keep the information
on pte but how about vrange-file(ie, vrange-shared)? Using a shadow
entry of radix tree? What are you thinking about?

Another major concern is still syscall's overhead.
Such page-based scheme has a trouble with syscall's speed so I'm
afraid users might not use the syscall any more. :(
Frankly speaking, we don't have concrete user so not sure how
the overhead is severe but we could imagine easily that in future
someuser might want to makr volatile huge GB memory.

But I couldn't insist on range-based option because it has downside, too.
If we don't work page-based model, reclaim path cleary have a big
overhead to scan virtual memory to find a victim pages. As worst case,
just a page in Huge GB vma. Even, a page might be other zone. :(
If we could optimize that path to prevent CPU buring in future,
it could make very complicated and not sure woking well.
We already have similar issue with compaction. ;-)

So, it's really dilemma.

> return a flag with the purged state.  This had some different
> semantics then what I've been working with for awhile (for example,
> any writes to pages would implicitly clear volatility), so I wasn't
> completely comfortable with it, but figured I'd think about it to see
> if it could be done. Particularly since it would in some ways simplify
> tmpfs/shm shared volatility that I'd eventually like to do.
> 
> After thinking it over in the hallway, I talked some of the details w/
> Johnnes and there was one issue that while w/ anonymous memory, we can
> still add a VM_VOLATILE flag on the vma, so we can get SIGBUS
> semantics, but since on shared volatile ranges, we don't have anything
> to hang a volatile flag on w/o adding some new vma like structure to
> the address_space structure (much as we did in the past w/ earlier
> volatile range implementations). This would negate much of the point
> of using the dirty bits to simplify the shared volatility
> implementation.
> 
> Thus Johannes is reasonably questioning the need for SIGBUS semantics,
> since if it wasn't needed, the simpler page-cleaning based volatility
> could potentially be used.

I think SIGBUS scenario isn't common but in case of JIT, it is necessary
and the amount of ram consumed would be never small for embedded world.

> 
> 
> Now, while for the case I'm personally most interested in (ashmem),
> zero-fill would technically be ok, since that's what Android does.
> Even so, I don't think its the best approach for the interface, since
> applications may end up quite surprised by the results when they
> accidentally don't follow the "don't touch volatile pages" rule.
> 
> That point beside, I think the other problem with the page-cleaning
> volatility approach is that there are other awkward side effects. For
> example: Say an application marks a range as volatile. One page in the
> range is then purged. The application, due to a bug or otherwise,
> reads the volatile range. This causes the page to be zero-filled in,
> and the application silently uses the corrupted data (which isn't
> great). More problematic though, is that by faulting the page in,
> they've in effect lost the purge state for that page. When the
> application then goes to mark the range as non-volatile, all pages are
> present, so we'd return that no pages were purged.  From an
> application perspective this is pretty ugly.
> 
> Johannes: Any thoughts on this potential issue with your proposal? Am
> I missing something else?
> 
> thanks
> -john
> 
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-- 
Kind regards,
Minchan Kim
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