Date:	Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:50:53 +0900
From:	Masami Hiramatsu <masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com>
To:	Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@...hat.com>
Cc:	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Satoru MORIYA <satoru.moriya.br@...achi.com>,
	Yoshihiro YUNOMAE <yoshihiro.yunomae.ez@...achi.com>,
	Eric Biederman <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	Motohiro Kosaki <Motohiro.Kosaki@...fujitsu.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Tomoki Sekiyama <tomoki.sekiyama@....com>
Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] kernel/panic: Add "late_kdump" option for kdump
 in unstable condition

(2014/04/16 11:33), Vivek Goyal wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:28:39AM +0900, Masami Hiramatsu wrote:
>> (2014/04/15 23:08), Vivek Goyal wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:37:40AM +0900, Masami Hiramatsu wrote:
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>>> Masami,
>>>>>
>>>>> So what's the alternative to kdump which is more reliable? IOW, what
>>>>> action you are planning to take through kmsg_dump() or through
>>>>> panic_notifiers?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen that many a times developers have tried to make the case 
>>>>> to save kernel buffers to NVRAM. Does it work well? Has it been proven
>>>>> to be more reliable than kdump?
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, one possible option is the NVRAM, but even with the serial,
>>>> there are other reasons to kick the notifiers, e.g.
>>>>  - dump to ipmi which has a very small amount of non-volatile memory
>>>>  - ftrace_dump() to dump "flight recorder" log to serial
>>>
>>> So why do we need to run them in crashed kernel? Only argument I seem
>>> to receive that there is no guarantee that kdump kernel will successfully
>>> boot hence we want to run these notifiers.
>>>
>>> But what's the guarantee that these will run successfully without creating
>>> futher issues? Is there data to prove it.
>>
>> I think there is no guarantee, but that's same as kdump is.
>> However, if we can try both, there is higher possibility (more cases)
>> to save some information.
> 
> This is only valid if the entity which is running before kdump has 
> higher probability of saving some useful information. So do kmsg_dump()
> and backend drivers provide more reliable way to save kernel logs as
> compared to kdump? 

IMHO, reliability discussion is meaningless at this point, because
it depends on the hardware/software configuration. For example,
someone has setup a server with a serial logger, serial output
is much more reliable. But it does NOT mean kdump is useless.
For precise information, we actually need kdump but it will be less
reliable than serial logger. On the other hand, if we have no
such external equipments, we'd better try kdump first.
(Actually, the problem of kdump is here, if we try kdump, it never
 return when it fails in the second kernel boot. Thus we can't fail
 back to the other handlers.)

> [..]
>>> I think big debate here is that we should be able to do most of it
>>> in second kernel. 
>>
>> No, that's another topic what we talk about.
>>
>> What I (and others who had argued) consider that in some rare cases,
>> kdump might fail to boot up the second kernel, and only for who worries
>> in those cases, we can give a chance.
> 
> And *rare failure cases* don't exist in other mechanisms which are
> planning to take control before kdump?

No, definitely not. Thus users must bet the safer way. :)
As I said, this option doesn't guarantee improving the safeness
of getting crash information, but just gives another option which
users want.

> You are assuming that any entity
> which runs before kdump is more reliable than kdump. And I don't think
> anybody has any data to prove that. People are just looking for a hook
> to execute things before kdump hoping that it will provide them better
> results.

Yeah, they hope, hope to have a chance to bet the better handler which
they believe. As you said, there are any data to prove that kdump is
safer than others too. Why don't we give a hand?

>>> If you provide a knob to run these in first kernel, this functionality
>>> will never migrate to second kernel.
>>
>> No, there are many use-cases which doesn't (and can't) use kdump
>> because of the limitation of resources etc. For those cases, that
>> functionality never migrate (means move) to the second one.
> 
> What are those use cases? What resources you are referring too. Are you
> planning to do a whole lot after kernel has crashed. That will not make
> much sense.

There are not only the enterprise server users, but also embedded
device users. Sometimes such small devices are distributed on the
remote site or somewhere outside. And they have limited resources.
Kdump is too big to them, but other panic handlers will be useful.

>>> And trying to make them safe in
>>> crashed kernel is a losing battle, I think.
>>
>> Why? the best goal what users expect is both panic-notifiers and kdump
>> runs safely. If one of them fails, that's a bug (except for some rare
>> hardware-related corruption.)
> 
> So you think that running panic-notifiers can be made safe? How would
> we do that?

Step 1. Add the late_kdump option.
Step 2. "Brave" users start using the option with panic-notifiers.
Step 3. They hits problems on that and reports bugs.
Step 4. We fix them.

> What's the special action panicn notifiers are taking which can't be
> done in second kernel. 

No, ant that is out of focus. What I meant is NOT what action
we can take IN the second kernel, but what action we can take
BEFORE the second kernel.

>>> So providing this knob does not help with making these notifiers better.
>>> These notifiers can become better only if migrate the functionality
>>> to second kernel (preferrably in user space). There we can extract all
>>> the data from /proc/vmcore and send it whereever you want.
>>
>> I see, that is also an important work, but that is done in userspace.
>> In kernel space, we can do something to give them a chance.
> 
> If the goal is to send kernel buffers at some location, then it does
> not matter whether a kernel driver does it or a user space application
> extracts buffers and then takes help of driver to send it.

Yeah, I see. What the first kernel can do, is also able to do in the
second kernel too. I strongly agreed. However, what I'd like to do
is to give a chance to execute panic handler before kdump.

>>> But for that you will have to trust kdump and keep on improving it
>>> constantly so that it works reasonably well.
>>
>> I trust you and kdump :) but I also know that in some rare cases that
>> kdump can't finish booting up, at least currently. So, if you sure
>> kdump is improved to boot up the second in any situation, I'm happy
>> to withdraw from this patch.
> 
> Kdump is best effort solution. I don't think anybody can guarantee that
> it will work in all situations.
> 
> And same will be true for different notifiers you are trying to run
> before kdump. By running those notifiers you can't be sure that they
> will always work and there are no corner cases.

Sure, but would you sure there is NO case that the panic-notifier can
run but kdump cannot ?

> So to me, late_kdump will make sense only if you have an alternate
> mechanism which can more reliably save kernel buffers as compared to
> kdump. My feeling is that nobody knows how reliable these kmsg_dump(),
> NVRAM saving hooks are. Proponets of these hooks seem to be believe
> that it will provide them a safety net in case kdump fails.

My point is not rely on the mechanism, but theoretically there are
some case that panic-notifier doesn't make worse, but only kdump
fails. E.g. memory corruption on the second kernel image.
This is the event that occur probabilistically, not the mechanism.

> Given the fact that people have been asking for this for years, I 
> think creating a command line parameter to switch to that behavior
> is probably not a bad idea. Distributions can probably continue to
> run without specifying "late_kdump" and those specific users who wish
> to run kmsg_dump() hooks before kdump, can configure their system with
> "late_kdump" parameter.

Thank you :)

> 
> Thanks
> Vivek

-- 
Masami HIRAMATSU
Software Platform Research Dept. Linux Technology Center
Hitachi, Ltd., Yokohama Research Laboratory
E-mail: masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com


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