Date:	Tue, 06 May 2014 20:45:50 +0900
From:	Masami Hiramatsu <masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com>
To:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>
Cc:	Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>,
	Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com>,
	Seth Jennings <sjenning@...hat.com>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, Jiri Slaby <jslaby@...e.cz>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/2] kpatch: dynamic kernel patching

(2014/05/06 3:43), Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, May 05, 2014 at 08:26:38AM -0500, Josh Poimboeuf wrote:
>>> On Mon, May 05, 2014 at 10:55:37AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>>>>
>>>> * Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> kpatch checks the backtraces of all tasks in stop_machine() to 
>>>>> ensure that no instances of the old function are running when the 
>>>>> new function is applied.  I think the biggest downside of this 
>>>>> approach is that stop_machine() has to idle all other CPUs during 
>>>>> the patching process, so it inserts a small amount of latency (a few 
>>>>> ms on an idle system).
>>>>
>>>> When live patching the kernel, how about achieving an even 'cleaner' 
>>>> state for all tasks in the system: to freeze all tasks, as the suspend 
>>>> and hibernation code (and kexec) does, via freeze_processes()?
>>>>
>>>> That means no tasks in the system have any real kernel execution 
>>>> state, and there's also no problem with long-sleeping tasks, as 
>>>> freeze_processes() is supposed to be fast as well.
>>>>
>>>> I.e. go for the most conservative live patching state first, and relax 
>>>> it only once the initial model is upstream and is working robustly.
>>>
>>> I had considered doing this before, but the problem I found is 
>>> that many kernel threads are unfreezable.  So we wouldn't be able 
>>> to check whether its safe to replace any functions in use by those 
>>> kernel threads.
>>
>> OTOH many kernel threads are parkable. Which achieves kind of 
>> similar desired behaviour: the kernel threads then aren't running.
>>
>> And in fact we could implement freezing on top of park for kthreads.
>>
>> But unfortunately there are still quite some of them which don't 
>> support parking.
> 
> Well, if distros are moving towards live patching (and they are!), 
> then it looks rather necessary to me that something scary as flipping 
> out live kernel instructions with substantially different code should 
> be as safe as possible, and only then fast.

Agreed.
At this point, I think we'd better take a safer way to live patch.

However, I also think if users can accept such freezing wait-time,
it means they can also accept kexec based "checkpoint-restart" patching.
So, I think the final goal of the kpatch will be live patching without
stopping the machine. I'm discussing the issue on github #138, but that is
off-topic. :)

> If a kernel refuses to patch with certain threads running, that will 
> drive those kernel threads being fixed and such. It's a deterministic, 
> recoverable, reportable bug situation, so fixing it should be fast.

That's nice to fix that. As Frederic said, we can make all kthreads
park-able.

> We learned these robustness lessons the hard way with kprobes and 
> ftrace dynamic code patching... which are utterly simple compared to 
> live kernel patching!

Yeah, thanks for your help :)

Thank you,

-- 
Masami HIRAMATSU
Software Platform Research Dept. Linux Technology Research Center
Hitachi, Ltd., Yokohama Research Laboratory
E-mail: masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com


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