Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1405081840580.17457@nftneq.ynat.uz>
Date:	Thu, 8 May 2014 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT)
From:	David Lang <david@...g.hm>
To:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>
cc:	Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com>,
	Jiri Kosina <jkosina@...e.cz>,
	Seth Jennings <sjenning@...hat.com>,
	Masami Hiramatsu <masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, Jiri Slaby <jslaby@...e.cz>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/2] kpatch: dynamic kernel patching

On Wed, 7 May 2014, Ingo Molnar wrote:

> * Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 06, 2014 at 09:32:28AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>>>
>>> * Jiri Kosina <jkosina@...e.cz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 5 May 2014, David Lang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> how would you know that all instances of the datastructure in memory
>>>>> have= been touched? just because all tasks have run and are outside the
>>>>> function in question doesn't tell you data structures have been
>>>>> converted. You have n= o way of knowing when (or if) the next call to
>>>>> the modified function will take place on any potential in-memory
>>>>> structure.
>>>>
>>>> The problem you are trying to avoid here is functions expecting to read
>>>> "v2" format of the data from memory, while there are still tasks that are
>>>> unpredictably writing "v1" format of the data to the memory.
>>>>
>>>> There are several ways to attack this problem:
>>>>
>>>> - stop the whole system, convert all the existing data structures to new
>>>>   format (which might potentially be non-trivial, mostly because you
>>>>   have to *know* where all the data structures have been allocated), apply
>>>>   patch, resume operation [ksplice, probably kpatch in future]
>>>> - restrict the data format to be backwards compatible [to be done
>>>>   manually during patch creation, currently what kGraft needs to do in
>>>>   such case]
>>>> - have a proxy code which can read both "v1" and "v2" formats, and writes
>>>>   back in the same format it has seen the data structure on input
>>>> - once all the *code* has been converted, it still has to understand "v1"
>>>>   and "v2", but it can now start writing out "v2" format only [possible
>>>>   with kGraft, not implemented in automated fashion]
>>>>
>>>> Ideas are of course more than welcome.
>>>
>>> So what I'm curious about, what is the actual 'in the field' distro
>>> experience, about the type of live-patches that get pushed with
>>> urgency?
>>>
>>> My guess would be that the overwhelming majority of live-patches don't
>>> change data structures - and hence the right initial model would be to
>>> ensure (via tooling, and via review) that 'v1' and 'v2' data is
>>> exactly the same.
>>
>> Yes, in general we want to avoid data changes.  In practice, we expect
>> most patches to be small, localized security fixes, so it shouldn't be
>> an issue in most cases.
>>
>> Currently the kpatch tooling detects any compile-time changes to
>> static data and refuses to build the patch module in that case.
>>
>> But there's no way to programmatically detect changes to dynamic
>> data. Which is why the user always has to be very careful when
>> selecting a patch.
>
> And since this is about the system kernel it's dead easy to mess up a
> new kernel function and make the system unbootable - so it's not like
> 'be careful' isn't something implied already.

It's possible to have two versions of code that each work independently, but 
that you can't switch between easily on the fly.

If the new code assumes a lock is held that the old code didn't take, then when 
you switch, you are eventually going to hit a case where the new code trys to 
release a lock it doesn't hold.

detecting all possible cases progromatically seems close to impossible.

but this means that there are two categories of patches

1. patches that are safe to put in a kernel that you are going to boot from

2. patches that are able to be applied on the fly

and the tool isn't going to be able to tell you which category the patch is in. 
It can identify some of the items that make it unlikely or impossible for the 
patch to belong to #2, but don't rely on the tool catching all of them

David Lang
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