Message-ID: <CAMEtUuxK5hV_eORRLaSHSiwF5X82Ae91vL6W0-6au48v8H6bAA@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 3 Jun 2014 13:15:27 -0700
From:	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...mgrid.com>
To:	Daniel Borkmann <dborkman@...hat.com>
Cc:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...radead.org>,
	Jiri Olsa <jolsa@...hat.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>,
	Chema Gonzalez <chema@...gle.com>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
	Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
	Network Development <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v6 net-next 1/4] net: flow_dissector: avoid multiple calls
 in eBPF

On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:33 AM, Daniel Borkmann <dborkman@...hat.com> wrote:
> On 06/02/2014 06:48 PM, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>
>> imo there are pros and cons in Daniel's and Chema's proposals
>> for classic BPF extensions.
>> I like Chema's a bit more, since his proposal doesn't require to
>> change classic BPF verifier and that's always a delicate area
>> (seccomp also allows to use M[] slots).
>
>
> What bothers me is that you have to *special case* this extension
> all over the BPF converter and stack, even you need to introduce a
> prologue just to walk the whole filter program and to check if the
> extension is present; next to that instead of one extension you
> need to add a couple of them to uapi. I understand Chema's proposal

Agree. The walking part and multiple anc loads are not clean, but in your
approach you'd need to hack sk_chk_filter() to recognize very specific
anc load and do even fancier things in check_load_and_stores()
to make sure that 'ld #5, ld #keys' is safe from M[] usage point of view.

> or his need to easily access these data but that's why I proposed
> the above if he wants to go for that. Btw, seccomp doesn't allow
> for loading BPF extensions, you said so yourself Alexei.

of course, but seccomp does use ld/st M[] which will overlap
with your socket extension and since check_load_and_stores()
will be hacked, seccomp verification needs to be considered as well.
>From user api point of view, your approach is cleaner than Chema's,
but from implementation Chema's is much safer and smaller.

Anyway as I said before I'm not excited about either.
I don't think we should be adding classic BPF extensions any more.
The long term headache of supporting classic BPF extensions
outweighs the short term benefits.

Not having to constantly tweak kernel for such cases was the key
goal of eBPF. My two eBPF approaches to solve Chema's need
are both cleaner, since nothing special is being done in eBPF
core to support this new need. Both instruction set and verifier
stay generic and cover tracing and this new socket use at once.
I do realize that I'm talking here about future eBPF verifier that
is not in tree yet and eBPF is not exposed to user space, but
I think we should consider longer term perspective.
If I'm forced to pick between yours or Chema's classic extensions,
I would pick Chema's because it's lesser evil :)

>> I think exposing eBPF to user space is not a matter of 'if' but 'when'.
>>
>> I'm not sure how pressing it is now to add another extension to classic,
>> when the goal of this patch set fits into eBPF model just fine.
>> yes, eBPF verifier is not in tree yet and it will obviously take longer to
>> review than Chema's or Daniel's set.
>>
>> When eBPF is exposed to user space the inner header access can
>> be done in two ways without changing eBPF instruction set or eBPF
>> verifier.
>>
>> eBPF approach #1:
>> -- code packet parser in restricted C
>> Pros:
>> skb_flow_dissect() stays hidden in kernel.
>> No additional uapi headache which exist if we start reusing
>> in-kernel skb_flow_dissect() either via classic or eBPF.
>> Such eBPF program will be just as fast as in-kernel skb_flow_dissect()
>> (I provided performance numbers before)
>> Cons:
>> in-kernel skb_flow_dissect() is not reused, but mostly copy-pasted to
>> userspace.
>>
>> eBPF approach #2:
>> -- reuse in-kernel skb_flow_dissect() via bpf_call insn from eBPF program
>> Pros:
>> eBPF program becomes much shorter and can be done in asm like:
>> bpf_mov r2, fp
>> bpf_sub r2, 64
>> bpf_call bpf_skb_flow_dissect  // call in-kernel helper function from
>> eBPF program
>> bpf_ldx r1, [fp - 64]  // access flow_keys data
>> bpf_ldx r2, [fp - 60]
>>
>> Cons:
>> bpf_skb_flow_dissect() (wrapper on top of skb_flow_dissect()) becomes
>> uapi visible helper function
>>
>> imo both eBPF approaches are cleaner than extending classic.
>>
>
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