Message-ID: <53CD8C7D.9010106@amd.com>
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 2014 00:56:13 +0300
From:	Oded Gabbay <oded.gabbay@....com>
To:	Jerome Glisse <j.glisse@...il.com>
CC:	Andrew Lewycky <Andrew.Lewycky@....com>,
	Michel Dänzer <michel.daenzer@....com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org" <dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
	linux-mm <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
	"Evgeny Pinchuk" <Evgeny.Pinchuk@....com>,
	Alexey Skidanov <Alexey.Skidanov@....com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/25] AMDKFD kernel driver

On 21/07/14 22:28, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 10:23:43PM +0300, Oded Gabbay wrote:
>> On 21/07/14 21:59, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 09:36:44PM +0300, Oded Gabbay wrote:
>>>> On 21/07/14 21:14, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 08:42:58PM +0300, Oded Gabbay wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/07/14 18:54, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 05:12:06PM +0300, Oded Gabbay wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 21/07/14 16:39, Christian König wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am 21.07.2014 14:36, schrieb Oded Gabbay:
>>>>>>>>>> On 20/07/14 20:46, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 04:57:25PM +0300, Oded Gabbay wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Forgot to cc mailing list on cover letter. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a continuation to the existing discussion, here is a v2 patch series
>>>>>>>>>>>> restructured with a cleaner history and no totally-different-early-versions
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead of 83 patches, there are now a total of 25 patches, where 5 of them
>>>>>>>>>>>> are modifications to radeon driver and 18 of them include only amdkfd code.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no code going away or even modified between patches, only added.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The driver was renamed from radeon_kfd to amdkfd and moved to reside under
>>>>>>>>>>>> drm/radeon/amdkfd. This move was done to emphasize the fact that this driver
>>>>>>>>>>>> is an AMD-only driver at this point. Having said that, we do foresee a
>>>>>>>>>>>> generic hsa framework being implemented in the future and in that case, we
>>>>>>>>>>>> will adjust amdkfd to work within that framework.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As the amdkfd driver should support multiple AMD gfx drivers, we want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> keep it as a seperate driver from radeon. Therefore, the amdkfd code is
>>>>>>>>>>>> contained in its own folder. The amdkfd folder was put under the radeon
>>>>>>>>>>>> folder because the only AMD gfx driver in the Linux kernel at this point
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the radeon driver. Having said that, we will probably need to move it
>>>>>>>>>>>> (maybe to be directly under drm) after we integrate with additional AMD gfx
>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For people who like to review using git, the v2 patch set is located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~gabbayo/linux/log/?h=kfd-next-3.17-v2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Written by Oded Gabbayh <oded.gabbay@....com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So quick comments before i finish going over all patches. There is many
>>>>>>>>>>> things that need more documentation espacialy as of right now there is
>>>>>>>>>>> no userspace i can go look at.
>>>>>>>>>> So quick comments on some of your questions but first of all, thanks for the
>>>>>>>>>> time you dedicated to review the code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There few show stopper, biggest one is gpu memory pinning this is a big
>>>>>>>>>>> no, that would need serious arguments for any hope of convincing me on
>>>>>>>>>>> that side.
>>>>>>>>>> We only do gpu memory pinning for kernel objects. There are no userspace
>>>>>>>>>> objects that are pinned on the gpu memory in our driver. If that is the case,
>>>>>>>>>> is it still a show stopper ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The kernel objects are:
>>>>>>>>>> - pipelines (4 per device)
>>>>>>>>>> - mqd per hiq (only 1 per device)
>>>>>>>>>> - mqd per userspace queue. On KV, we support up to 1K queues per process, for
>>>>>>>>>> a total of 512K queues. Each mqd is 151 bytes, but the allocation is done in
>>>>>>>>>> 256 alignment. So total *possible* memory is 128MB
>>>>>>>>>> - kernel queue (only 1 per device)
>>>>>>>>>> - fence address for kernel queue
>>>>>>>>>> - runlists for the CP (1 or 2 per device)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The main questions here are if it's avoid able to pin down the memory and if the
>>>>>>>>> memory is pinned down at driver load, by request from userspace or by anything
>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I can see only the "mqd per userspace queue" might be a bit
>>>>>>>>> questionable, everything else sounds reasonable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Christian.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most of the pin downs are done on device initialization.
>>>>>>>> The "mqd per userspace" is done per userspace queue creation. However, as I
>>>>>>>> said, it has an upper limit of 128MB on KV, and considering the 2G local
>>>>>>>> memory, I think it is OK.
>>>>>>>> The runlists are also done on userspace queue creation/deletion, but we only
>>>>>>>> have 1 or 2 runlists per device, so it is not that bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2G local memory ? You can not assume anything on userside configuration some
>>>>>>> one might build an hsa computer with 512M and still expect a functioning
>>>>>>> desktop.
>>>>>> First of all, I'm only considering Kaveri computer, not "hsa" computer.
>>>>>> Second, I would imagine we can build some protection around it, like
>>>>>> checking total local memory and limit number of queues based on some
>>>>>> percentage of that total local memory. So, if someone will have only
>>>>>> 512M, he will be able to open less queues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I need to go look into what all this mqd is for, what it does and what it is
>>>>>>> about. But pinning is really bad and this is an issue with userspace command
>>>>>>> scheduling an issue that obviously AMD fails to take into account in design
>>>>>>> phase.
>>>>>> Maybe, but that is the H/W design non-the-less. We can't very well
>>>>>> change the H/W.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can not change the hardware but it is not an excuse to allow bad design to
>>>>> sneak in software to work around that. So i would rather penalize bad hardware
>>>>> design and have command submission in the kernel, until AMD fix its hardware to
>>>>> allow proper scheduling by the kernel and proper control by the kernel. 
>>>> I'm sorry but I do *not* think this is a bad design. S/W scheduling in
>>>> the kernel can not, IMO, scale well to 100K queues and 10K processes.
>>>
>>> I am not advocating for having kernel decide down to the very last details. I am
>>> advocating for kernel being able to preempt at any time and be able to decrease
>>> or increase user queue priority so overall kernel is in charge of resources
>>> management and it can handle rogue client in proper fashion.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Because really where we want to go is having GPU closer to a CPU in term of scheduling
>>>>> capacity and once we get there we want the kernel to always be able to take over
>>>>> and do whatever it wants behind process back.
>>>> Who do you refer to when you say "we" ? AFAIK, the hw scheduling
>>>> direction is where AMD is now and where it is heading in the future.
>>>> That doesn't preclude the option to allow the kernel to take over and do
>>>> what he wants. I agree that in KV we have a problem where we can't do a
>>>> mid-wave preemption, so theoretically, a long running compute kernel can
>>>> make things messy, but in Carrizo, we will have this ability. Having
>>>> said that, it will only be through the CP H/W scheduling. So AMD is
>>>> _not_ going to abandon H/W scheduling. You can dislike it, but this is
>>>> the situation.
>>>
>>> We was for the overall Linux community but maybe i should not pretend to talk
>>> for anyone interested in having a common standard.
>>>
>>> My point is that current hardware do not have approriate hardware support for
>>> preemption hence, current hardware should use ioctl to schedule job and AMD
>>> should think a bit more on commiting to a design and handwaving any hardware
>>> short coming as something that can be work around in the software. The pinning
>>> thing is broken by design, only way to work around it is through kernel cmd
>>> queue scheduling that's a fact.
>>
>>>
>>> Once hardware support proper preemption and allows to move around/evict buffer
>>> use on behalf of userspace command queue then we can allow userspace scheduling
>>> but until then my personnal opinion is that it should not be allowed and that
>>> people will have to pay the ioctl price which i proved to be small, because
>>> really if you 100K queue each with one job, i would not expect that all those
>>> 100K job will complete in less time than it takes to execute an ioctl ie by
>>> even if you do not have the ioctl delay what ever you schedule will have to
>>> wait on previously submited jobs.
>>
>> But Jerome, the core problem still remains in effect, even with your
>> suggestion. If an application, either via userspace queue or via ioctl,
>> submits a long-running kernel, than the CPU in general can't stop the
>> GPU from running it. And if that kernel does while(1); than that's it,
>> game's over, and no matter how you submitted the work. So I don't really
>> see the big advantage in your proposal. Only in CZ we can stop this wave
>> (by CP H/W scheduling only). What are you saying is basically I won't
>> allow people to use compute on Linux KV system because it _may_ get the
>> system stuck.
>>
>> So even if I really wanted to, and I may agree with you theoretically on
>> that, I can't fulfill your desire to make the "kernel being able to
>> preempt at any time and be able to decrease or increase user queue
>> priority so overall kernel is in charge of resources management and it
>> can handle rogue client in proper fashion". Not in KV, and I guess not
>> in CZ as well.
>>
>> 	Oded
> 
> I do understand that but using kernel ioctl provide the same kind of control
> as we have now ie we can bind/unbind buffer on per command buffer submission
> basis, just like with current graphic or compute stuff.
> 
> Yes current graphic and compute stuff can launch a while and never return back
> and yes currently we have nothing against that but we should and solution would
> be simple just kill the gpu thread.
> 
OK, so in that case, the kernel can simple unmap all the queues by
simply writing an UNMAP_QUEUES packet to the HIQ. Even if the queues are
userspace, they will not be mapped to the internal CP scheduler.
Does that satisfy the kernel control level you want ?

	Oded
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It might be better to add a drivers/gpu/drm/amd directory and add common
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Given that this is not intended to be final HSA api AFAICT then i would
>>>>>>>>>>> say this far better to avoid the whole kfd module and add ioctl to radeon.
>>>>>>>>>>> This would avoid crazy communication btw radeon and kfd.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The whole aperture business needs some serious explanation. Especialy as
>>>>>>>>>>> you want to use userspace address there is nothing to prevent userspace
>>>>>>>>>>> program from allocating things at address you reserve for lds, scratch,
>>>>>>>>>>> ... only sane way would be to move those lds, scratch inside the virtual
>>>>>>>>>>> address reserved for kernel (see kernel memory map).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The whole business of locking performance counter for exclusive per process
>>>>>>>>>>> access is a big NO. Which leads me to the questionable usefullness of user
>>>>>>>>>>> space command ring.
>>>>>>>>>> That's like saying: "Which leads me to the questionable usefulness of HSA". I
>>>>>>>>>> find it analogous to a situation where a network maintainer nacking a driver
>>>>>>>>>> for a network card, which is slower than a different network card. Doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> seem reasonable this situation is would happen. He would still put both the
>>>>>>>>>> drivers in the kernel because people want to use the H/W and its features. So,
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think this is a valid reason to NACK the driver.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me rephrase, drop the the performance counter ioctl and modulo memory pinning
>>>>>>> i see no objection. In other word, i am not NACKING whole patchset i am NACKING
>>>>>>> the performance ioctl.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again this is another argument for round trip to the kernel. As inside kernel you
>>>>>>> could properly do exclusive gpu counter access accross single user cmd buffer
>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I only see issues with that. First and foremost i would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to see solid figures that kernel ioctl or syscall has a higher an
>>>>>>>>>>> overhead that is measurable in any meaning full way against a simple
>>>>>>>>>>> function call. I know the userspace command ring is a big marketing features
>>>>>>>>>>> that please ignorant userspace programmer. But really this only brings issues
>>>>>>>>>>> and for absolutely not upside afaict.
>>>>>>>>>> Really ? You think that doing a context switch to kernel space, with all its
>>>>>>>>>> overhead, is _not_ more expansive than just calling a function in userspace
>>>>>>>>>> which only puts a buffer on a ring and writes a doorbell ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am saying the overhead is not that big and it probably will not matter in most
>>>>>>> usecase. For instance i did wrote the most useless kernel module that add two
>>>>>>> number through an ioctl (http://people.freedesktop.org/~glisse/adder.tar) and
>>>>>>> it takes ~0.35microseconds with ioctl while function is ~0.025microseconds so
>>>>>>> ioctl is 13 times slower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now if there is enough data that shows that a significant percentage of jobs
>>>>>>> submited to the GPU will take less that 0.35microsecond then yes userspace
>>>>>>> scheduling does make sense. But so far all we have is handwaving with no data
>>>>>>> to support any facts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now if we want to schedule from userspace than you will need to do something
>>>>>>> about the pinning, something that gives control to kernel so that kernel can
>>>>>>> unpin when it wants and move object when it wants no matter what userspace is
>>>>>>> doing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>

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