Message-ID: <CAFdhcLSdwbzvbA8Q1qBJBVqS51XVVqG_b-u57Ds8UXk4-1mcxA@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 27 Aug 2014 11:35:40 -0400
From:	David Horner <ds2horner@...il.com>
To:	Dan Streetman <ddstreet@...e.org>
Cc:	Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>,
	Joonsoo Kim <iamjoonsoo.kim@....com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Linux-MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Sergey Senozhatsky <sergey.senozhatsky@...il.com>,
	Jerome Marchand <jmarchan@...hat.com>, juno.choi@....com,
	seungho1.park@....com, Luigi Semenzato <semenzato@...gle.com>,
	Nitin Gupta <ngupta@...are.org>,
	Seth Jennings <sjennings@...iantweb.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 3/4] zram: zram memory size limitation

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Dan Streetman <ddstreet@...e.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:44 AM, David Horner <ds2horner@...il.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Dan Streetman <ddstreet@...e.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 10:51 PM, Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> wrote:
>>>> Hey Joonsoo,
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:26:11AM +0900, Joonsoo Kim wrote:
>>>>> Hello, Minchan and David.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 08:22:29AM -0400, David Horner wrote:
>>>>> > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:55 AM, Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> wrote:
>>>>> > > Hey Joonsoo,
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 04:37:30PM +0900, Joonsoo Kim wrote:
>>>>> > >> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:05:55AM +0900, Minchan Kim wrote:
>>>>> > >> > @@ -513,6 +540,14 @@ static int zram_bvec_write(struct zram *zram, struct bio_vec *bvec, u32 index,
>>>>> > >> >             ret = -ENOMEM;
>>>>> > >> >             goto out;
>>>>> > >> >     }
>>>>> > >> > +
>>>>> > >> > +   if (zram->limit_pages &&
>>>>> > >> > +           zs_get_total_pages(meta->mem_pool) > zram->limit_pages) {
>>>>> > >> > +           zs_free(meta->mem_pool, handle);
>>>>> > >> > +           ret = -ENOMEM;
>>>>> > >> > +           goto out;
>>>>> > >> > +   }
>>>>> > >> > +
>>>>> > >> >     cmem = zs_map_object(meta->mem_pool, handle, ZS_MM_WO);
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Hello,
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> I don't follow up previous discussion, so I could be wrong.
>>>>> > >> Why this enforcement should be here?
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> I think that this has two problems.
>>>>> > >> 1) alloc/free happens unnecessarilly if we have used memory over the
>>>>> > >> limitation.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > True but firstly, I implemented the logic in zsmalloc, not zram but
>>>>> > > as I described in cover-letter, it's not a requirement of zsmalloc
>>>>> > > but zram so it should be in there. If every user want it in future,
>>>>> > > then we could move the function into zsmalloc. That's what we
>>>>> > > concluded in previous discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm...
>>>>> Problem is that we can't avoid these unnecessary overhead in this
>>>>> implementation. If we can implement this feature in zram efficiently,
>>>>> it's okay. But, I think that current form isn't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we can add it in zsmalloc, it would be more clean and efficient
>>>> for zram but as I said, at the moment, I didn't want to put zram's
>>>> requirement into zsmalloc because to me, it's weird to enforce max
>>>> limit to allocator. It's client's role, I think.
>>>>
>>>> If current implementation is expensive and rather hard to follow,
>>>> It would be one reason to move the feature into zsmalloc but
>>>> I don't think it makes critical trobule in zram usecase.
>>>> See below.
>>>>
>>>> But I still open and will wait others's opinion.
>>>> If other guys think zsmalloc is better place, I am willing to move
>>>> it into zsmalloc.
>>>
>>> Moving it into zsmalloc would allow rejecting new zsmallocs before
>>> actually crossing the limit, since it can calculate that internally.
>>> However, with the current patches the limit will only be briefly
>>> crossed, and it should not be crossed by a large amount.  Now, if this
>>> is happening repeatedly and quickly during extreme memory pressure,
>>> the constant alloc/free will clearly be worse than a simple internal
>>> calculation and failure.  But would it ever happen repeatedly once the
>>> zram limit is reached?
>>>
>>> Now that I'm thinking about the limit from the perspective of the zram
>>> user, I wonder what really will happen.  If zram is being used for
>>> swap space, then when swap starts getting errors trying to write
>>> pages, how damaging will that be to the system?  I haven't checked
>>> what swap does when it encounters disk errors.  Of course, with no
>>> zram limit, continually writing to zram until memory is totally
>>> consumed isn't good either.  But in any case, I would hope that swap
>>> would not repeatedly hammer on a disk when it's getting write failures
>>> from it.
>>>
>>> Alternately, if zram was being used as a compressed ram disk for
>>> regular file storage, it's entirely up to the application to handle
>>> write failures, so it may continue to try to write to a full zram
>>> disk.
>>>
>>> As far as what the zsmalloc api would look like with the limit added,
>>> it would need a setter and getter function (adding it as a param to
>>> the create function would be optional i think).  But more importantly,
>>> it would need to handle multiple ways of specifying the limit.  In our
>>> specific current use cases, zram and zswap, each handles their
>>> internal limit differently - zswap currently uses a % of total ram as
>>> its limit (defaulting to 20), while with these patches zram will use a
>>> specific number of bytes as its limit (defaulting to no limit).  If
>>> the limiting mechanism is moved into zsmalloc (and possibly zbud),
>>> then either both users need to use the same units (bytes or %ram), or
>>> zsmalloc/zbud need to be able to set their limit in either units.  It
>>> seems to me like keeping the limit in zram/zswap is currently
>>> preferable, at least without both using the same limit units.
>>>
>>
>> zswap knows what 20% (or whatever % it currently uses , and perhaps it too
>> will become a tuning knob) of memory is in bytes.
>>
>> So, if the interface to establish a limit for a pool (or pool set, or whatever
>> zsmalloc sets up for its allocation mechanism) is stipulated in bytes
>> (to actually use pages internally, of visa-versa) , then both can use
>> that interface.
>> zram with its native page stipulation, and zswap with calculated % of memory).
>
> No, unless zswap monitors memory hotplug and updates the limit on each
> hotplug event, 20% of the *current* total ram at zswap initialization
> is not equal to an actual 20% of ram limit.  zswap checks its size
> against totalram_pages for each new allocation. I don't think we would
> prefer adding memory hotplug monitoring to zswap just to update the
> zpool size limit.
>

OK - I see the need to retain the limits where they are in the using
components so that
zsmalloc is not unnecessarily complicated (keeping track of 2 limit methods).

So, zswap has the same race conditions and possible transient over-allocations?
It looks like I will have to check on how zswap implements it.
But perhaps you can answer the question that is not in the code:
Have there been reported thrashing behaviour around the 20% limit for zswap?

thanks.

>>
>> Both would need a mechanism to change the max as need change,
>>  so the API has to handle this.
>>
>>
>> Or am I way off base?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Another idea is we could call zs_get_total_pages right before zs_malloc
>>>>> > > but the problem is we cannot know how many of pages are allocated
>>>>> > > by zsmalloc in advance.
>>>>> > > IOW, zram should be blind on zsmalloc's internal.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We did however suggest that we could check before hand to see if
>>>>> > max was already exceeded as an optimization.
>>>>> > (possibly with a guess on usage but at least using the minimum of 1 page)
>>>>> > In the contested case, the max may already be exceeded transiently and
>>>>> > therefore we know this one _could_ fail (it could also pass, but odds
>>>>> > aren't good).
>>>>> > As Minchan mentions this was discussed before - but not into great detail.
>>>>> > Testing should be done to determine possible benefit. And as he also
>>>>> > mentions, the better place for it may be in zsmalloc, but that
>>>>> > requires an ABI change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why we hesitate to change zsmalloc API? It is in-kernel API and there
>>>>> are just two users now, zswap and zram. We can change it easily.
>>>>> I think that we just need following simple API change in zsmalloc.c.
>>>>>
>>>>> zs_zpool_create(gfp_t gfp, struct zpool_ops *zpool_op)
>>>>> =>
>>>>> zs_zpool_create(unsigned long limit, gfp_t gfp, struct zpool_ops
>>>>> *zpool_op)
>>>>>
>>>>> It's pool allocator so there is no obstacle for us to limit maximum
>>>>> memory usage in zsmalloc. It's a natural idea to limit memory usage
>>>>> for pool allocator.
>>>>>
>>>>> > Certainly a detailed suggestion could happen on this thread and I'm
>>>>> > also interested
>>>>> > in your thoughts, but this patchset should be able to go in as is.
>>>>> > Memory exhaustion avoidance probably trumps the possible thrashing at
>>>>> > threshold.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > About alloc/free cost once if it is over the limit,
>>>>> > > I don't think it's important to consider.
>>>>> > > Do you have any scenario in your mind to consider alloc/free cost
>>>>> > > when the limit is over?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >> 2) Even if this request doesn't do new allocation, it could be failed
>>>>> > >> due to other's allocation. There is time gap between allocation and
>>>>> > >> free, so legimate user who want to use preallocated zsmalloc memory
>>>>> > >> could also see this condition true and then he will be failed.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Yeb, we already discussed that. :)
>>>>> > > Such false positive shouldn't be a severe problem if we can keep a
>>>>> > > promise that zram user cannot exceed mem_limit.
>>>>> > >
>>>>>
>>>>> If we can keep such a promise, why we need to limit memory usage?
>>>>> I guess that this limit feature is useful for user who can't keep such promise.
>>>>> So, we should assume that this false positive happens frequently.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The goal is to limit memory usage within some threshold.
>>>> so false positive shouldn't be harmful unless it exceeds the threshold.
>>>> In addition, If such false positive happens frequently, it means
>>>> zram is very trobule so that user would see lots of write fail
>>>> message, sometime really slow system if zram is used for swap.
>>>> If we protect just one write from the race, how much does it help
>>>> this situation? I don't think it's critical problem.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > And we cannot avoid the race, nor can we avoid in a low overhead competitive
>>>>> > concurrent process transient inconsistent states.
>>>>> > Different views for different observers.
>>>>> >  They are a consequence of the theory of "Special Computational Relativity".
>>>>> >  I am working on a String Unification Theory of Quantum and General CR in LISP.
>>>>> >  ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> If we move limit logic to zsmalloc, we can avoid the race by commiting
>>>>> needed memory size before actual allocation attempt. This commiting makes
>>>>> concurrent process serialized so there is no race here. There is
>>>>> possibilty to fail to allocate, but I think this is better than alloc
>>>>> and free blindlessly depending on inconsistent states.
>>>>
>>>> Normally, zsmalloc/zsfree allocates object from existing pool so
>>>> it's not big overhead and if someone continue to try writing  once limit is
>>>> full, another overhead (vfs, fs, block) would be bigger than zsmalloc
>>>> so it's not a problem, I think.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in
>>>>> the body to majordomo@...ck.org.  For more info on Linux MM,
>>>>> see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ .
>>>>> Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@...ck.org"> email@...ck.org </a>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Minchan Kim
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