Date:	Fri, 31 Oct 2014 09:26:09 +0800
From:	zhanghailiang <zhang.zhanghailiang@...wei.com>
To:	"Dr. David Alan Gilbert" <dgilbert@...hat.com>
CC:	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>, <qemu-devel@...gnu.org>,
	<kvm@...r.kernel.org>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andres Lagar-Cavilla <andreslc@...gle.com>,
	Dave Hansen <dave@...1.net>,
	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>, Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Sasha Levin <sasha.levin@...cle.com>,
	"Hugh Dickins" <hughd@...gle.com>,
	Peter Feiner <pfeiner@...gle.com>,
	"Christopher Covington" <cov@...eaurora.org>,
	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
	"Android Kernel Team" <kernel-team@...roid.com>,
	Robert Love <rlove@...gle.com>,
	"Dmitry Adamushko" <dmitry.adamushko@...il.com>,
	Neil Brown <neilb@...e.de>, "Mike Hommey" <mh@...ndium.org>,
	Taras Glek <tglek@...illa.com>, Jan Kara <jack@...e.cz>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...il.com>,
	"Michel Lespinasse" <walken@...gle.com>,
	Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>,
	"Keith Packard" <keithp@...thp.com>,
	"Huangpeng (Peter)" <peter.huangpeng@...wei.com>,
	Isaku Yamahata <yamahata@...inux.co.jp>,
	Anthony Liguori <anthony@...emonkey.ws>,
	Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@...il.com>,
	Wenchao Xia <wenchaoqemu@...il.com>,
	Andrew Jones <drjones@...hat.com>,
	Juan Quintela <quintela@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/17] RFC: userfault v2

On 2014/10/30 20:49, Dr. David Alan Gilbert wrote:
> * zhanghailiang (zhang.zhanghailiang@...wei.com) wrote:
>> On 2014/10/30 1:46, Andrea Arcangeli wrote:
>>> Hi Zhanghailiang,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 05:32:51PM +0800, zhanghailiang wrote:
>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your hard work on userfault;)
>>>>
>>>> This is really a useful API.
>>>>
>>>> I want to confirm a question:
>>>> Can we support distinguishing between writing and reading memory for userfault?
>>>> That is, we can decide whether writing a page, reading a page or both trigger userfault.
>>>>
>>>> I think this will help supporting vhost-scsi,ivshmem for migration,
>>>> we can trace dirty page in userspace.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, i'm trying to relize live memory snapshot based on pre-copy and userfault,
>>>> but reading memory from migration thread will also trigger userfault.
>>>> It will be easy to implement live memory snapshot, if we support configuring
>>>> userfault for writing memory only.
>>>
>>> Mail is going to be long enough already so I'll just assume tracking
>>> dirty memory in userland (instead of doing it in kernel) is worthy
>>> feature to have here.
>>>
>>> After some chat during the KVMForum I've been already thinking it
>>> could be beneficial for some usage to give userland the information
>>> about the fault being read or write, combined with the ability of
>>> mapping pages wrprotected to mcopy_atomic (that would work without
>>> false positives only with MADV_DONTFORK also set, but it's already set
>>> in qemu). That will require "vma->vm_flags & VM_USERFAULT" to be
>>> checked also in the wrprotect faults, not just in the not present
>>> faults, but it's not a massive change. Returning the read/write
>>> information is also a not massive change. This will then payoff mostly
>>> if there's also a way to remove the memory atomically (kind of
>>> remap_anon_pages).
>>>
>>> Would that be enough? I mean are you still ok if non present read
>>> fault traps too (you'd be notified it's a read) and you get
>>> notification for both wrprotect and non present faults?
>>>
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, and your patience;)
>>
>> Er, maybe i didn't describe clearly. What i really need for live memory snapshot
>> is only wrprotect fault, like kvm's dirty tracing mechanism, *only tracing write action*.
>>
>> My initial solution scheme for live memory snapshot is:
>> (1) pause VM
>> (2) using userfaultfd to mark all memory of VM is wrprotect (readonly)
>> (3) save deivce state to snapshot file
>> (4) resume VM
>> (5) snapshot thread begin to save page of memory to snapshot file
>> (6) VM is going to run, and it is OK for VM or other thread to read ram (no fault trap),
>>      but if VM try to write page (dirty the page), there will be
>>      a userfault trap notification.
>> (7) a fault-handle-thread reads the page request from userfaultfd,
>>      it will copy content of the page to some buffers, and then remove the page's
>>      wrprotect limit(still using the userfaultfd to tell kernel).
>> (8) after step (7), VM can continue to write the page which is now can be write.
>> (9) snapshot thread save the page cached in step (7)
>> (10) repeat step (5)~(9) until all VM's memory is saved to snapshot file.
>
> Hmm, I can see the same process being useful for the fault-tolerance schemes
> like COLO, it needs a memory state snapshot.
>
>> So, what i need for userfault is supporting only wrprotect fault. i don't
>> want to get notification for non present reading faults, it will influence
>> VM's performance and the efficiency of doing snapshot.
>
> What pages would be non-present at this point - just balloon?
>

Er, sorry, it should be 'no-present page faults';)

> Dave
>
>> Also, i think this feature will benefit for migration of ivshmem and vhost-scsi
>> which have no dirty-page-tracing now.
>>
>>> The question then is how you mark the memory readonly to let the
>>> wrprotect faults trap if the memory already existed and you didn't map
>>> it yourself in the guest with mcopy_atomic with a readonly flag.
>>>
>>> My current plan would be:
>>>
>>> - keep MADV_USERFAULT|NOUSERFAULT just to set VM_USERFAULT for the
>>>    fast path check in the not-present and wrprotect page fault
>>>
>>> - if VM_USERFAULT is set, find if there's a userfaultfd registered
>>>    into that vma too
>>>
>>>      if yes engage userfaultfd protocol
>>>
>>>      otherwise raise SIGBUS (single threaded apps should be fine with
>>>      SIGBUS and it'll avoid them to spawn a thread in order to talk the
>>>      userfaultfd protocol)
>>>
>>> - if userfaultfd protocol is engaged, return read|write fault + fault
>>>    address to read(ufd) syscalls
>>>
>>> - leave the "userfault" resolution mechanism independent of the
>>>    userfaultfd protocol so we keep the two problems separated and we
>>>    don't mix them in the same API which makes it even harder to
>>>    finalize it.
>>>
>>>      add mcopy_atomic (with a flag to map the page readonly too)
>>>
>>>      The alternative would be to hide mcopy_atomic (and even
>>>      remap_anon_pages in order to "remove" the memory atomically for
>>>      the externalization into the cloud) as userfaultfd commands to
>>>      write into the fd. But then there would be no much point to keep
>>>      MADV_USERFAULT around if I do so and I could just remove it
>>>      too or it doesn't look clean having to open the userfaultfd just
>>>      to issue an hidden mcopy_atomic.
>>>
>>>      So it becomes a decision if the basic SIGBUS mode for single
>>>      threaded apps should be supported or not. As long as we support
>>>      SIGBUS too and we don't force to use userfaultfd as the only
>>>      mechanism to be notified about userfaults, having a separate
>>>      mcopy_atomic syscall sounds cleaner.
>>>
>>>      Perhaps mcopy_atomic could be used in other cases that may arise
>>>      later that may not be connected with the userfault.
>>>
>>> Questions to double check the above plan is ok:
>>>
>>> 1) should I drop the SIGBUS behavior and MADV_USERFAULT?
>>>
>>> 2) should I hide mcopy_atomic as a write into the userfaultfd?
>>>
>>>     NOTE: even if I hide mcopy_atomic as a userfaultfd command to write
>>>     into the fd, the buffer pointer passed to write() syscall would
>>>     still _not_ be pointing to the data like a regular write, but it
>>>     would be a pointer to a command structure that points to the source
>>>     and destination data of the "hidden" mcopy_atomic, the only
>>>     advantage is that perhaps I could wakeup the blocked page faults
>>>     without requiring an additional syscall.
>>>
>>>     The standalone mcopy_atomic would still require a write into the
>>>     userfaultfd as it happens now after remap_anon_pages returns, in
>>>     order to wakeup the stopped page faults.
>>>
>>> 3) should I add a registration command to trap only write faults?
>>>
>>
>> Sure, that is what i really need;)
>>
>>
>> Best Regards???
>> zhanghailiang
>>
>>>     The protocol can always be extended later anyway in a backwards
>>>     compatible way but it's better if we get it fully featured from the
>>>     start.
>>>
>>> For completeness, some answers for other questions I've seen floating
>>> around but that weren't posted on the list yet (you can skip reading
>>> the below part if not interested):
>>>
>>> - open("/dev/userfault") instead of sys_userfaultfd(), I don't see the
>>>    benefit: userfaultfd is just like eventfd in terms of kernel API and
>>>    registering a /dev/ device actually sounds trickier. userfault is a
>>>    core VM feature and generally we prefer syscalls for core VM
>>>    features instead of running ioctl on some chardev that may or may
>>>    not exist. (like we did with /dev/ksm -> MADV_MERGEABLE)
>>>
>>> - there was a suggestion during KVMForum about allowing an external
>>>    program to attach to any MM. Like ptrace. So you could have a single
>>>    process managing all userfaults for different processes. However
>>>    because I cannot allow multiple userfaultfd to register into the
>>>    same range, this doesn't look very reliable (ptrace is kind of an
>>>    optional/debug feature while if userfault goes wrong and returns
>>>    -EBUSY things go bad) and there may be other complications. If I'd
>>>    allow multiple userfaultfd to register into the same range, I
>>>    wouldn't even know who to deliver the userfault to. It is an erratic
>>>    behavior. Currently it'd return -EBUSY if the app has a bug and does
>>>    that, but maybe later this can be relaxed to allow higher
>>>    scalability with a flag (userfaultfd gets flags as parameters), but
>>>    it still would need to be the same logic that manages userfaults and
>>>    the only point of allowing multiple ufd to map the same range would
>>>    be SMP scalability. So I tend to see the userfaultfd as a MM local
>>>    thing. The thread managing the userfaults can still talk with
>>>    another process in the local machine using pipes or sockets if it
>>>    needs to.
>>>
>>> - the userfaultfd protocol version handshake was done this way because
>>>    it looked more reliable.
>>>
>>>    Of course we could pass the version of the protocol as parameter to
>>>    userfaultfd too, but running the syscall multiple times until
>>>    -EPROTO didn't return anymore doesn't seem any better than writing
>>>    into the fd the wanted protocol until you read it back instead of
>>>    -1ULL. It just looked more reliable not having to run the syscall
>>>    again and again while depending on -EPROTO or some other
>>>    -Esomething.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andrea
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
> --
> Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilbert@...hat.com / Manchester, UK
>
> .
>

--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Powered by blists - more mailing lists