Message-ID: <808291558.8227.1415208064002.JavaMail.zimbra@efficios.com>
Date:	Wed, 5 Nov 2014 17:21:04 +0000 (UTC)
From:	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>
To:	Sebastian Andrzej Siewior <bigeasy@...utronix.de>
Cc:	Alexandre Montplaisir <alexmonthy@...populi.im>,
	Jiri Olsa <jolsa@...hat.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Dominique Toupin <dominique.toupin@...csson.com>,
	Tom Zanussi <tzanussi@...il.com>,
	Jeremie Galarneau <jgalar@...icios.com>,
	David Ahern <dsahern@...il.com>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC 0/5] perf tools: Add perf data CTF conversion

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sebastian Andrzej Siewior" <bigeasy@...utronix.de>
> To: "Alexandre Montplaisir" <alexmonthy@...populi.im>
> Cc: "Jiri Olsa" <jolsa@...hat.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, "Dominique Toupin" <dominique.toupin@...csson.com>,
> "Mathieu Desnoyers" <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>, "Tom Zanussi" <tzanussi@...il.com>, "Jeremie Galarneau"
> <jgalar@...icios.com>, "David Ahern" <dsahern@...il.com>, "Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo" <acme@...hat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 7:50:28 AM
> Subject: Re: FW: [RFC 0/5] perf tools: Add perf data CTF conversion
> 
> * Alexandre Montplaisir | 2014-11-04 02:20:10 [+0100]:
> 
> >Hi Sebastian,
> Hi Alexandre,

Hi!

Sorry for jumping in late in the discussion. I really wanted to
consider the various impact of tracepoint semantic before answering.

> 
> >On 11/03/2014 06:58 PM, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
> >This is really great! Initially, I had believed that we would have
> >needed to add a separate parser plugin, and to consider "perf traces"
> >as a completely different beast from LTTng traces. However if you can
> >get this close to they way LTTng presents its data, then we can
> >probably re-use most of the existing code. In which case we could
> >rename the "LTTng Kernel Trace" type in the UI to simply "Linux
> >Kernel Trace". And that would cover both LTTng kernel traces and
> >CTF-perf traces.
> 
> we have now CTF here. So lets see what we do about the naming
> convention.
> 
> >>The cpu_id field change will be addressed soon on our side.
> >>Now, the remaining things:
> >>The "domain = kernel" thingy (or another identifier if desired) is
> >>something we could add.
> >
> >Unless the event data is exactly the same, it would be easier to use
> >a different name. Like "kernel-perf" for instance?
> 
> Some kind of a namespace / identifier is probably not wrong. The lttng
> tracer added a tracer version probably in case the format changes
> between version for some reason. Perf comes with the kernel so for this
> the kernel version should sufficient.

Yes, using the kernel version for Perf makes sense. I reach a similar
conclusion for LTTng: we should add tracepoint semantic versioning
somewhere in the CTF metadata, because the semantic of an event can
change based on the LTTng version, and based on which kernel version
LTTng is tracing.

A very good example is the semantic of the sched_wakeup event. It has
changed due to scheduler code modification, and is now called from an
IPI context, which changes its semantic (not called from the same
PID). Unfortunately, there is little we can do besides checking the
kernel version to detect the semantic change from the trace viewer
side, because neither the event nor the field names have changed.

The trace viewer could therefore care about the following information
to identify the semantic of a trace:

- Tracer name (e.g. lttng or perf),
- Domain (e.g. kernel or userspace),
- Tracepoint versioning (e.g. kernel version for Perf).

Because CTF supports both kernel and userspace tracing, we also want
to solve this semantic detection problem both for the kernel and
userspace. Therefore, we should consider how the userspace
tracepoints could save version information in the user-space metadata
too.

Since we have traces shared across applications (per user-ID buffers)
in lttng-ust, the semantic info, and therefore the versioning, should
be done on a per-provider (or per-event) basis, rather than trace-wide,
because a single trace could contain events from various applications,
each with their own set of providers, therefore each with their
versioning info.

So if we apply this description scheme to the kernel tracing case,
this would mean that each event in the CTF metadata would have
version information. For Perf, this could very well be the kernel
version that we simply repeat for each event metadata entry. For
LTTng-modules, we would have our own versioning that is independent
of the kernel version, since the semantic of the events we expose
can change for a given kernel version as lttng-modules evolves.

In summary, for perf it would be really easy: just repeat the
kernel version in a new attribute attached to each event in the
metadata. For LTTng we would have the flexibility to have our own
version numbers in there. This would also cover the case of
userspace tracing, allowing each application to advertise their
tracepoint provider semantic changes through versioning.

> 
> >From the user's point of view, both would still be Linux Kernel
> >Traces, but we could use the domain internally to determine which
> >event/field layout to use.
> >
> >Mathieu, any thoughts on how CTF domains should be namespaced?

(see above)

> >
> >>Now that I identified the differences between the CTF from lttng and
> >>perf, any suggestions / ideas how this could be solved?
> >
> >I suppose it would be better/cleaner if the event and field names
> >would remain the same, or at least be similar, in the perf.data and
> >perf-CTF formats.
> 
> Yes, that would be cool. Especially if we teach perf to record straight
> to CTF.
> 
> >If the trace events from both LTTng and perf represent the same thing
> >(and I assume they should, since they come from the same tracepoints,
> >right?), then we could just add a wrapper on the viewer side to
> >decide which event/field names to use, depending on the trace type.

I think we might want to keep a different semantic namespace for
perf and lttng, because LTTng has the luxury to change event semantic
mapping between minor LTTng versions in order to add/remove/tweak event
content as necessary, and Perf is really tied to each kernel version
it is shipped with.

> >
> >Right now, we only define LTTng event and field names:
> >http://git.eclipse.org/c/tracecompass/org.eclipse.tracecompass.git/tree/org.eclipse.tracecompass.lttng2.kernel.core/src/org/eclipse/tracecompass/internal/lttng2/kernel/core/LttngStrings.java
> 
> Okay. So I found this file for linuxtools now let me try tracecompass.
> The basic renaming should do the job. Then I have to figure out how to
> compile this thingy…
> 
> There is this one thing where you go for "tid" while perf says "pid". I
> guess I could figure that out once I have the rename done.

LTTng uses the semantic presented to user-space to identify threads and
processes. What you find in /proc is what you find in a LTTng trace. The
tracepoint semantic used by perf and ftrace uses the kernel-internal
meaning of pid = thread ID, pgid = process ID, which differs from what is
visible from user-space.

I guess it's up to you to decide if you want to stick to the kernel-internal
semantic, or switch to the user-visible (/proc) semantic for perf traces.

> We don't have lttng_statedump_process_state, this look lttng specific. I
> would have to look if there is a replacement event in perf.

Not that I am aware of. Perf tends to add fields to each records to keep
track of extra state. LTTng can also do that by dynamically attaching
context information, but it also supports dumping the initial system
state, thus allowing trace viewers to reconstruct the system state by
reading the trace, starting with the state dump events at the beginning.

> 
> I have no idea what we could do about the "unknown" events, say someone
> enbales skb tracing. But this is probably something for once we are
> done with the basic integration.
> 
> >But if you could for example tell me the perf equivalents of all the
> >strings in that file, I could hack together such wrapper. With that,
> >in theory, perf traces should behave exactly the same as LTTng traces
> >in the viewer!

Ideally, the Trace Compass views should only care about a model of the OS.
Populating this model can be done by various "state gathering" plugins,
e.g. one for lttng, one for perf, which know about versioning and semantic
of the events contained in each trace.

[...]

> For the fields, this is one event with alle the members we have. Please
> note that lttng saves the members with the _ prefix and I haven't seen
> that prefix in that .java file. The members of each event:

Yeah, the _ prefix for event names. This is one decision I would like to
find a way to revert, but we'll have to live with it unfortunately for
CTF 1.8. The issue it's trying to fix is to allow having fields named
"event" that don't clash with the "event" reserved keyword. When I added
the _ prefix, I did it like this in the CTF spec:

"Replacing reserved keywords with underscore-prefixed field names is
recommended. Fields starting with an underscore should have their leading
underscore removed by the CTF trace readers."

Unfortunately, this introduces semantic corner-cases for event names that
would indeed start with an underscore, unless they are prefixed with
double-underscore in the metadata.

So far, the only fix I see to this situation is to eventually do a
CTF 1.9, and add the notion of a $ prefix to the grammar (which is not
part of the symbols accepted for an identifier) to be used as a field
name prefix that ensures there is no clash with reserved keywords. I'm
very open to suggestions there through, and I'm really not in a hurry
to release a new CTF spec version (we should only do so when we have
a batch of changes that are required, because it will require all trace
readers to be updated).

Thanks!

Mathieu

> >Cheers,
> >Alexandre
> 
> Sebastian
> 

-- 
Mathieu Desnoyers
EfficiOS Inc.
http://www.efficios.com
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