Date:	Thu, 15 Jan 2015 18:23:47 +0000
From:	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>
To:	Grant Likely <grant.likely@...aro.org>
Cc:	Will Deacon <Will.Deacon@....com>,
	"hanjun.guo@...aro.org" <hanjun.guo@...aro.org>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
	Olof Johansson <olof@...om.net>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	Mark Rutland <Mark.Rutland@....com>,
	Lorenzo Pieralisi <Lorenzo.Pieralisi@....com>,
	"graeme.gregory@...aro.org" <graeme.gregory@...aro.org>,
	Sudeep Holla <Sudeep.Holla@....com>,
	"jcm@...hat.com" <jcm@...hat.com>,
	Jason Cooper <jason@...edaemon.net>,
	Marc Zyngier <Marc.Zyngier@....com>,
	Bjorn Helgaas <bhelgaas@...gle.com>,
	Mark Brown <broonie@...nel.org>, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org>,
	Robert Richter <rric@...nel.org>,
	Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@...radead.org>,
	Charles Garcia-Tobin <Charles.Garcia-Tobin@....com>,
	"phoenix.liyi@...wei.com" <phoenix.liyi@...wei.com>,
	Timur Tabi <timur@...eaurora.org>,
	"suravee.suthikulpanit@....com" <suravee.suthikulpanit@....com>,
	Yijing Wang <wangyijing@...wei.com>,
	ACPI Devel Mailing List <linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org>,
	"linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org" 
	<linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linaro-acpi <linaro-acpi@...ts.linaro.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v7 00/17] Introduce ACPI for ARM64 based on ACPI 5.1

Hi Grant,

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 04:26:20PM +0000, Grant Likely wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Hanjun Guo <hanjun.guo@...aro.org> wrote:
> > This is the v7 of ACPI core patches for ARM64 based on ACPI 5.1
> 
> I'll get right to the point: Can we please have this series queued up
> for v3.20?

Before you even ask for this, please look at the patches and realise
that there is a complete lack of Reviewed-by tags on the code (well,
apart from trivial Kconfig changes). In addition, the series touches on
other subsystems like clocksource, irqchip, acpi and I don't see any
acks from the corresponding maintainers. So even if I wanted to merge
the series, there is no way it can be done without additional
reviews/acks. On the document (last patch), I'd like to see a statement
from HP as they've been vocal in private but no public endorsement of
this doc.

I also have trouble seeing the full picture. Is there a git repository
somewhere with this series and any additional patches required for a
real hardware platform?

> I really think we've hit the point where it is more valuable to merge
> it (or at least prepare to merge it) rather than keeping it out of
> mainline.

That's pretty subjective.

> Continuing to keep the patches out I think is having the opposite
> effect from what is desired. Catalin, you've told me a few times that
> saying "no" is the only leverage you have to keeping crap drivers out
> of the kernel until things mature, and by extension influence how
> firmware gets implemented. However, as far as drivers are concerned,
> there is nothing stopping maintainers from picking up ACPI drivers for
> ARM hardware regardless of whether or not the core ARM code is merged.
> If a driver depends on CONFIG_ACPI, and if the code seems to look
> good, there is nothing preventing it from being merged. There are
> already ARM related ACPI patches going into mainline.
> 
> For example: https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/12/25/120

I wasn't really referring to simple driver changes like the above but to
whole subsystems like clocks done in ACPI. My point was that before we
enable arm64 ACPI, we need to have some clear guidelines to firmware and
hardware vendors, otherwise if we don't know how to do it properly, we
shouldn't even bother (or we may end up re-creating the DT support in
ACPI; I'm not convinced that's sorted yet).

> Instead, keeping these patches out means that hardware is getting
> developed and tested against Fedora, early access RHEL and Linaro
> kernels. It means that we're abdicating on any influence mainline has
> over how those platforms are developed. The longer these patches stay
> out of mainline, the greater the potential for delta between what is
> in the vendor kernels and what we accept into mainline.

I'm not buying this argument. Putting pressure on maintainers to merge
something because Fedora or some other distro has merged them is not the
right approach. If such Linux vendors ignore arguments on the list just
for the sake of providing ACPI support, there is a high chance that they
will accept non-standard code any other time when the kernel community
disagrees.

Just to be clear, I don't block the ACPI patches for fun, reading these
long threads is not fun anymore. I don't have any religious arguments
against ACPI, longer term I see it as a first class citizen alongside
DT, but I want to make sure we do it properly and have a clear vision on
how we support it in the future. You can call this "delayed
gratification" if you want.

And it's not about code going into arch/arm64 and not even small driver
changes to enable ACPI but the longer term plans on how we reduce
(rather than eliminate) future kernel quirks because we didn't first get
to an agreement on how kernel and firmware interact. Things are getting
better and Al's to-do list is a good benchmark (more comments below).

(I have my concerns with DT as well but the requirement of compatibility
between older/newer kernels/firmware is not as strict)

> Finally, keeping them out has the practical effect of causing extra
> work to continually rebase them, while potentially running into new
> conflicts and bugs, for little if any real benefit. Whereas getting
> them into linux-next starts giving us some feedback on conflicts with
> other things that are being queued up for mainline. Not to mention
> reviewer fatigue having to go over the same set of patches again and
> again.

17 patches is really not too hard and it looks like the number is slowly
decreasing as they are picked by the corresponding maintainers.

> Right now we're at -rc4. We'll be at -rc5 this weekend, and quite
> possibly have a new merge window right at the start of Connect.
> Queuing these patches up now isn't even a 100% commitment for you to
> ask Linus to pull them. We can have further discussions at Connect. If
> you're still not satisfied then drop them out again for another cycle.
> However, if they aren't queued up now, then we're looking at mid-June
> before they show up in a mainline kernel release.

See the beginning of the email about the prerequisites for queuing
something up into linux-next.

> As promised earlier, I said that I'd go through the todo list items.
> Here they are with discussion:
> 1. Define how Aarch64 OS identifies itself to firmware
> - We've pretty much settled on dropping the _OSI interface entirely,
> which is trivial to do. All of the current platforms can adapt to
> this. There are still some discussions around _OSC, but given that
> this is the first release there isn't anything for the platform to
> differentiate on regarding features. This isn't going to affect
> current platforms, but rather will be important with the release of
> the next version of the ACPI spec. It shouldn't affect our ability to
> merge core support

I'm fine with this.

> 2. Linux must choose DT booting by default when offered both ACPI and
>    * Status: DONE, but being revisited for possible algorithmic change

OK.

> 3. Linux UEFI/ACPI testing tools must be made available
>    * Done. We're implementing more tests of course, but that is expected.

OK.

> 4. Set clear expectations for those providing ACPI for use with Linux
>    * We have a document that covers what we know so far, and will
> continue to expand it. Also talking with the SBBR folks to move
> relevant requirements into the SBBR doc.

Moving bits of it into SBBR is a good long term plan but it should not
prevent the merging. However, I'd like to see more vendors ok'ing the
kernel document.

> 5. Platform support patches need verification and review
>    * ACPI core works on at least the Foundation model, Juno, APM
> Mustang, and AMD Seattle
>    * There still are driver patches being discussed. See Al's summary
> for details
>    * As I argued above, the state of driver patches isn't going to be

We are still lacking here. To quote Al, "First version for AMD Seattle
has been posted to the public linaro-acpi mailing list for initial
review". Sorry but I don't follow linaro-acpi list. I don't know what's
in those patches and I can't tell which subsystems they touch, whether
maintainers agree with them. So in conclusion, I'm not confident the
arm64 hardware ACPI story looks that great yet.

As for Juno and foundation models, I don't consider them server
platforms.

> 6. How does the kernel handle_DSD usage?
> While important, these issues are separate from whether or not to
> merge the core aarch64 code. This work was defined and driven by Intel
> for their embedded platforms, and it is already in mainline. Keeping
> aarch64 support out isn't going to prevent drivers using it from being
> merged. I don't think this should be a reason for blocking this
> series.

Intel folk is coming from the other direction, relatively standard
hardware getting slightly more non-standard and they need a few bits
added in _DSD. On ARM, we have completely non-standard hardware with DT
used to describe complex topology (clocks, pin controls, voltage
regulators etc.) with a high risk that vendors see _DSD as a work around
standardising hardware or doing it properly in ACPI (whatever that
means, AML?).

> 7. Why is ACPI required?
> I hope I've addressed this[1], but discussion continues.
> 
> [1] http://www.spinics.net/lists/arm-kernel/msg389955.html

That's great. I see this as a good reference for the future.

To complete the picture, we probably need a "Why *not* ACPI on ARM" blog
as well explaining when ACPI is *not* suitable (e.g. no SBSA
compliance). The arm-acpi.txt covers the ACPI requirements from the
kernel perspective and, by contrast, DT would be better suited for
certain platforms. The way you present it is that ACPI solves lots of
problems that DT doesn't but not necessarily where the ACPI limitations
are (vs DT).

-- 
Catalin
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