linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH 01/13] kdbus: add documentation

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Message-ID: <CALCETrV_q9Y4OWC6fA78WsD+XFhsdGHrqH6OK-hc=Vvj2F5C5w@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:41:04 -0800
From:	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
To:	Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org>
Cc:	Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>, "Ted Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>,
	Michael Kerrisk <mtk.manpages@...il.com>,
	Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
	One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Austin S Hemmelgarn <ahferroin7@...il.com>,
	Tom Gundersen <teg@...m.no>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>,
	Djalal Harouni <tixxdz@...ndz.org>,
	Johannes Stezenbach <js@...21.net>,
	Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 01/13] kdbus: add documentation

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:09 AM, Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org> wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> On 02/02/2015 09:12 PM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> On Feb 2, 2015 1:34 AM, "Daniel Mack" <daniel@...que.org> wrote:
>
>>> That's right, but again - if an application wants to gather this kind of
>>> information about tasks it interacts with, it can do so today by looking
>>> at /proc or similar sources. Desktop machines do exactly that already,
>>> and the kernel code executed in such cases very much resembles that in
>>> metadata.c, and is certainly not cheaper. kdbus just makes such
>>> information more accessible when requested. Which information is
>>> collected is defined by bit-masks on both the sender and the receiver
>>> connection, and most applications will effectively only use a very
>>> limited set by default if they go through one of the more high-level
>>> libraries.
>>
>> I should rephrase a bit.  Kdbus doesn't require use of send-time
>> metadata.  It does, however, strongly encourage it, and it sounds like
>
> On the kernel level, kdbus just *offers* that, just like sockets offer
> SO_PASSCRED. On the userland level, kdbus helps applications get that
> information race-free, easier and faster than they would otherwise.
>
>> systemd and other major users will use send-time metadata.  Once that
>> happens, it's ABI (even if it's purely in userspace), and changing it
>> is asking for security holes to pop up.  So you'll be mostly stuck
>> with it.
>
> We know we can't break the ABI. At most, we could deprecate item types
> and introduce new ones, but we want to avoid that by all means of
> course. However, I fail to see how that is related to send time
> metadata, or even to kdbus in general, as all ABIs have to be kept stable.

I should have said it differently.  ABI is the wrong term -- it's more
of a protocol issue.

It looks like, with the current code, the kernel will provide
(optional) send-time metadata, and the sd-bus library will use it.
The result will be that the communication protocol between clients and
udev, systemd, systemd-logind, g-s-d, etc, will likely involve
send-time metadata.  This may end up being a bottleneck.

Once this happens, changing the protocol will be very hard without
introducing security bugs.  If people start switching to
connection-time metadata to gain performance, then they'll break both
the communication protocol and the expectations of client code.  (In
fact, it'll break twice, sort of, since I think that the current
protocols are connect-time.)

To me, this seems like a down-side of using send-time metadata, albeit
possibly not a huge downside at least in the near term.  I don't see a
corresponding benefit, though.

>
>> Do you have some simple benchmark code you can share?  I'd like to
>> play with it a bit.
>
> Sure, it's part of the self-test suite. Call it with "-t benchmark" to
> run the benchmark as isolated test with verbose output. The code for
> that lives in test-benchmark.c.
>

I'll try to play with this soon.  Thanks.

--Andy

>
> Thanks,
> Daniel
>
>



-- 
Andy Lutomirski
AMA Capital Management, LLC
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