linux-kernel - Re: MADV_DONTNEED semantics? Was: [RFC PATCH] mm: madvise: Ignore repeated MADV

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Date:	Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:41:12 +0100
From:	"Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" <mtk.manpages@...il.com>
To:	Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>
CC:	mtk.manpages@...il.com, Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@...e.cz>,
	"Kirill A. Shutemov" <kirill@...temov.name>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...el.com>,
	Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>,
	"linux-mm@...ck.org" <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	lkml <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-man <linux-man@...r.kernel.org>,
	Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>
Subject: Re: MADV_DONTNEED semantics? Was: [RFC PATCH] mm: madvise: Ignore
 repeated MADV_DONTNEED hints

On 02/05/2015 02:07 AM, Minchan Kim wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 08:24:27PM +0100, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote:
>> On 4 February 2015 at 18:02, Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@...e.cz> wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2015 03:00 PM, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Vlastimil,
>>>>
>>>> On 4 February 2015 at 14:46, Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@...e.cz> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - that covers mlocking ok, not sure if the rest fits the "shared pages"
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>> though. I dont see any check for other kinds of shared pages in the
>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. "shared" here seems confused. I've removed it. And I've
>>>>>> added mention of "Huge TLB pages" for this error.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also added those cases for MADV_REMOVE, BTW.
>>>
>>>
>>> Right. There's also the following for MADV_REMOVE that needs updating:
>>>
>>> "Currently, only shmfs/tmpfs supports this; other filesystems return with
>>> the error ENOSYS."
>>>
>>> - it's not just shmem/tmpfs anymore. It should be best to refer to
>>> fallocate(2) option FALLOC_FL_PUNCH_HOLE which seems to be (more) up to
>>> date.
>>>
>>> - AFAICS it doesn't return ENOSYS but EOPNOTSUPP. Also neither error code is
>>> listed in the ERRORS section.
>>
>> Yup, I recently added that as well, based on a patch from Jan Chaloupka.
>>
>>>>>>>>> - The word "will result" did sound as a guarantee at least to me. So
>>>>>>>>> here it
>>>>>>>>> could be changed to "may result (unless the advice is ignored)"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's too late to fix documentation. Applications already depends on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> beheviour.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, so as long as they check for EINVAL, it should be safe. It
>>>>>>> appears
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> jemalloc does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, first a brief question: in the cases where the call does not error
>>>>>> out,
>>>>>> are we agreed that in the current implementation, MADV_DONTNEED will
>>>>>> always result in zero-filled pages when the region is faulted back in
>>>>>> (when we consider pages that are not backed by a file)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd agree at this point.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the confirmation.
>>>>
>>>>> Also we should probably mention anonymously shared pages (shmem). I think
>>>>> they behave the same as file here.
>>>>
>>>> You mean tmpfs here, right? (I don't keep all of the synonyms straight.)
>>>
>>> shmem is tmpfs (that by itself would fit under "files" just fine), but also
>>> sys V segments created by shmget(2) and also mappings created by mmap with
>>> MAP_SHARED | MAP_ANONYMOUS. I'm not sure if there's a single manpage to
>>> refer to the full list.
>>
>> So, how about this text:
>>
>>               After a successful MADV_DONTNEED operation, the seman‐
>>               tics  of  memory  access  in  the specified region are
>>               changed: subsequent accesses of  pages  in  the  range
>>               will  succeed,  but will result in either reloading of
>>               the memory contents from the  underlying  mapped  file
>>               (for  shared file mappings, shared anonymous mappings,
>>               and shmem-based techniques such  as  System  V  shared
>>               memory  segments)  or  zero-fill-on-demand  pages  for
>>               anonymous private mappings.
> 
> Hmm, I'd like to clarify.
> 
> Whether it was intention or not, some of userspace developers thought
> about that syscall drop pages instantly if was no-error return so that
> they will see more free pages(ie, rss for the process will be decreased)
> with keeping the VMA. Can we rely on it?

I do not know. Michael?

> And we should make error section, too.
> "locked" covers mlock(2) and you said you will add hugetlb. Then,
> VM_PFNMAP? In that case, it fails. How can we say about VM_PFNMAP?
> special mapping for some drivers?

I'm open for offers on what to add.
 
> One more thing, "The kernel is free to ignore the advice".
> It conflicts "This call does not influence the semantics of the
> application (except in the case of MADV_DONTNEED)" so
> is it okay we can believe "The kernel is free to ingmore the advise
> except MADV_DONTNEED"?

I decided to just drop the sentence

     The kernel is free to ignore the advice.

It creates misunderstandings, and does not really add information.

Cheers,

Michael

-- 
Michael Kerrisk
Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/
Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
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