Message-ID: <CAMEtUuwAf4AFeWVEdJB4VQz_=2fWY=q8=rbkFg38rtVtNVCHxg@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:53:22 -0800
From:	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...mgrid.com>
To:	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>
Cc:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>, Namhyung Kim <namhyung@...nel.org>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...radead.org>,
	Jiri Olsa <jolsa@...hat.com>,
	Masami Hiramatsu <masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com>,
	Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
	Network Development <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 linux-trace 1/8] tracing: attach eBPF programs to
 tracepoints and syscalls

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 5:05 AM, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 22:10:45 -0800
> Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...mgrid.com> wrote:
>
>> One can argue that current TP_printk format is already an ABI,
>> because somebody might be parsing the text output.
>
> If somebody does, then it is an ABI. Luckily, it's not that useful to
> parse, thus it hasn't been an issue. As Linus has stated in the past,
> it's not that we can't change ABI interfaces, its just that we can not
> change them if there's a user space application that depends on it.

there are already tools that parse trace_pipe:
https://github.com/brendangregg/perf-tools

> and expect some events to have specific fields. Now we can add new
> fields, or even remove fields that no user space tool is using. This is
> because today, tools use libtraceevent to parse the event data.

not all tools use libtraceevent.
gdb calls perf_event_open directly:
https://sourceware.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=binutils-gdb.git;a=blob;f=gdb/nat/linux-btrace.c
and parses PERF_RECORD_SAMPLE as a binary.
In this case it's branch records, but I think we never said anywhere
that PERF_SAMPLE_IP | PERF_SAMPLE_ADDR should come
in this particular order.

> This is why I'm nervous about exporting the parameters of the trace
> event call. Right now, those parameters can always change, because the
> only way to know they exist is by looking at the code. And currently,
> there's no way to interact with those parameters. Once we have eBPF in
> mainline, we now have a way to interact with the parameters and if
> those parameters change, then the eBPF program will break, and if eBPF
> can be part of a user space tool, that will break that tool and
> whatever change in the trace point that caused this breakage would have
> to be reverted. IOW, this can limit development in the kernel.

it can limit development unless we say that bpf programs
that attach to tracepoints are not part of ABI.
Easy enough to add large comment similar to perf_event.h

> Al Viro currently does not let any tracepoint in VFS because he doesn't
> want the internals of that code locked to an ABI. He's right to be
> worried.

Same with networking bits. We don't want tracepoints to limit
kernel development, but we want debuggability and kernel
analytics.
All existing tracepoints defined via DEFINE_EVENT should
not be an ABI.
But some maintainers think of them as ABI, whereas others
are using them freely. imo it's time to remove ambiguity.

The idea for new style of tracepoints is the following:
introduce new macro: DEFINE_EVENT_USER
and let programs attach to them.
These tracepoint will receive one or two pointers to important
structs only. They will not have TP_printk, assign and fields.
The placement and arguments to these new tracepoints
will be an ABI.
All existing tracepoints are not.

The main reason to attach to tracepoint is that they are
accessible without debug info (unlike kprobe)
Another reason is speed. tracepoints are much faster than
optimized kprobes and for real-time analytics the speed
is critical.

The position of new tracepoints and their arguments
will be an ABI and the programs can be both.
If program is using bpf_fetch*() helpers it obviously
wants to access internal data structures, so
it's really nothing more, but 'safe kernel module'
and kernel layout specific.
Both old and new tracepoints + programs will be used
for live kernel debugging.

If program is accessing user-ized data structures then
it is portable and will run on any kernel.
In uapi header we can define:
struct task_struct_user {
  int pid;
  int prio;
};
and let bpf programs access it via real 'struct task_struct *'
pointer passed into tracepoint.
bpf loader will translate offsets and sizes used inside
the program into real task_struct's offsets and loads.
(all structs are read-only of course)
programs will be fast and kernel independent.
They will be used for analytics (latency, etc)

>> so in some cases we cannot change tracepoints without
>> somebody complaining that his tool broke.
>> In other cases tracepoints are used for debugging only
>> and no one will notice when they change...
>> It was and still a grey area.
>
> Not really. If a tool uses the tracepoint, it can lock that tracepoint
> down. This is exactly what latencytop did. It happened, it's not a
> hypothetical situation.

correct.

>> bpf doesn't change any of that.
>> It actually makes addition of new tracepoints easier.
>
> I totally disagree. It adds more ways to see inside the kernel, and if
> user space depends on this, it adds more ways the kernel can not change.
>
> It comes down to how robust eBPF is with the internals of the kernel
> changing. If we limit eBPF to system call tracepoints only, that's
> fine because those have the same ABI as the system call itself. I'm
> worried about the internal tracepoints for scheduling, irqs, file
> systems, etc.

agree. we need to make it clear that existing tracepoints
+ programs is not ABI.

>> In the future we might add a tracepoint and pass a single
>> pointer to interesting data struct to it. bpf programs will walk
>> data structures 'as safe modules' via bpf_fetch*() methods
>> without exposing it as ABI.
>
> Will this work if that structure changes? When the field we are looking
> for no longer exists?

bpf_fetch*() is the same mechanism as perf probe.
If there is a mistake by user space tools, the program
will be reading some junk, but it won't be crashing.
To be able to debug live kernel we need to see everywhere.
Same way as systemtap loads kernel modules to walk
things inside kernel, bpf programs walk pointers with
bpf_fetch*().
I'm saying that if program is using bpf_fetch*()
it wants to see kernel internals and obviously depends
on particular kernel layout.

>> whereas today we pass a lot of fields to tracepoints and
>> make all of these fields immutable.
>
> The parameters passed to the tracepoint are not shown to userspace and
> can change at will. Now, we present the final parsing of the parameters
> that convert to fields. As all currently known tools uses
> libtraceevent.a, and parse the format files, those fields can move
> around and even change in size. The structures are not immutable. The
> fields are locked down if user space relies on them. But they can move
> about within the tracepoint, because the parsing allows for it.
>
> Remember, these are processed fields. The result of TP_fast_assign()
> and what gets put into the ring buffer. Now what is passed to the
> actual tracepoint is not visible by userspace, and in lots of cases, it
> is just a pointer to some structure. What eBPF brings to the table is a
> way to access this structure from user space. What keeps a structured
> passed to a tracepoint from becoming immutable if there's a eBPF
> program that expects it to have a specific field?

agree. that's fair.
I'm proposing to treat bpf programs that attach to existing
tracepoints as kernel modules that carry no ABI claims.

>> and bpf programs like live debugger that examine things.
>
> If bpf programs only dealt with kprobes, I may agree. But tracepoints
> have already been proven to be a type of ABI. If we open another window
> into the kernel, this can screw us later. It's better to solve this now
> than when we are fighting with Linus over user space breakage.

I'm not sure what's more needed other than adding
large comments into documentation, man pages and sample
code that bpf+existing tracepoint is not an ABI.

> What we need is to know if eBPF programs are modules or a user space
> interface. If they are a user interface then we need to be extremely
> careful here. If they are treated the same as modules, then it would
> not add any API. But that hasn't been settled yet, even if we have a
> comment in the kernel.
>
> Maybe what we should do is to make eBPF pass the kernel version it was
> made for (with all the mod version checks). If it doesn't match, fail
> to load it. Perhaps the more eBPF is limited like modules are, the
> better chance we have that no eBPF program creates a new ABI.

it's easy to add kernel version check and it will be equally
easy for user space to hack it.
imo comments in documentation and samples is good enough.

also not all bpf programs are equal.
bpf+existing tracepoint is not ABI
bpf+new tracepoint is ABI if programs are not using bpf_fetch
bpf+syscall is ABI if programs are not using bpf_fetch
bpf+kprobe is not ABI
bpf+sockets is ABI
At the end we want most of the programs to be written
without assuming anything about kernel internals.
But for live kernel debugging we will write programs
very specific to given kernel layout.

We can categorize the above in non-ambigous via
bpf program type.
Programs with:
BPF_PROG_TYPE_TRACEPOINT - not ABI
BPF_PROG_TYPE_KPROBE - not ABI
BPF_PROG_TYPE_SOCKET_FILTER - ABI

for my proposed 'new tracepoints' we can add type:
BPF_PROG_TYPE_TRACEPOINT_USER - ABI
and disallow calls to bpf_fetch*() for them.
To make it more strict we can do kernel version check
for all prog types that are 'not ABI', but is it really necessary?

To summarize and consolidate other threads:
- I will remove reading of PERF_SAMPLE_RAW in tracex1 example.
it's really orthogonal to this whole discussion.
- will add more comments through out that just because
programs can read tracepoint arguments, they shouldn't
make any assumptions that args stays as-is from version to version
- will work on a patch to demonstrate how few in-kernel
structures can be user-ized and how programs can access
them in version-indepedent way

btw the concept of user-ized data structures already exists
with classic bpf, since 'A = load -0x1000' is translated into
'A = skb->protocol'. I'm thinking of something similar
but more generic and less obscure.
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