Message-ID: <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:30:58 -0800
From:	Frank Rowand <frowand.list@...il.com>
To:	Pantelis Antoniou <pantelis.antoniou@...sulko.com>
CC:	Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>,
	"devicetree@...r.kernel.org" <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
	Tony Lindgren <tony@...mide.com>,
	Koen Kooi <koen@...inion.thruhere.net>,
	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@...el.com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Grant Likely <grant.likely@...retlab.ca>,
	Ludovic Desroches <ludovic.desroches@...el.com>,
	"linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org" 
	<linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
	Matt Porter <matt.porter@...aro.org>,
	Guenter Roeck <linux@...ck-us.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure

On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> 
>> On Feb 19, 2015, at 18:48 , Frank Rowand <frowand.list@...il.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2/19/2015 6:29 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 19:31 , Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> +While this may in theory work, in practice it is very cumbersome
>>>>>>> +for the following reasons:
>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>> +1. The act of selecting a different boot device tree blob requires
>>>>>>> +a reasonably advanced bootloader with some kind of configuration or
>>>>>>> +scripting capabilities. Sadly this is not the case many times, the
>>>>>>> +bootloader is extremely dumb and can only use a single dt blob.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can have several bootloader builds, or even a single build with
>>>>>> something like appended DTB to get an appropriate DTB if the same binary
>>>>>> will otherwise work across all variants of a board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the same DTB will not work across all the variants of a board.
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't on about the DTB. I was on about the loader binary, in the case
>>>> the FW/bootloader could be common even if the DTB couldn't.
>>>>
>>>> To some extent there must be a DTB that will work across all variants
>>>> (albeit with limited utility) or the quirk approach wouldn't work…
>>>>
>>>
>>> That’s not correct; the only part of the DTB that needs to be common
>>> is the model property that would allow the quirk detection logic to fire.
>>>
>>> So, there is a base DTB that will work on all variants, but that only means
>>> that it will work only up to the point that the quirk detector method
>>> can work. So while in recommended practice there are common subsets
>>> of the DTB that might work, they might be unsafe.
>>>
>>> For instance on the beaglebone the regulator configuration is different
>>> between white and black, it is imperative you get them right otherwise
>>> you risk board damage.
>>>
>>>>>> So it's not necessarily true that you need a complex bootloader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> +2. On many instances boot time is extremely critical; in some cases
>>>>>>> +there are hard requirements like having working video feeds in under
>>>>>>> +2 seconds from power-up. This leaves an extremely small time budget for
>>>>>>> +boot-up, as low as 500ms to kernel entry. The sanest way to get there
>>>>>>> +is by removing the standard bootloader from the normal boot sequence
>>>>>>> +altogether by having a very small boot shim that loads the kernel and
>>>>>>> +immediately jumps to kernel, like falcon-boot mode in u-boot does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given my previous comments above I don't see why this is relevant.
>>>>>> You're already passing _some_ DTB here, so if you can organise for the
>>>>>> board to statically provide a sane DTB that's fine, or you can resort to
>>>>>> appended DTB if it's not possible to update the board configuration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You’re missing the point. I can’t use the same DTB for each revision of the
>>>>> board. Each board is similar but it’s not identical.
>>>>
>>>> I think you've misunderstood my point. If you program the board with the
>>>> relevant DTB, or use appended DTB, then you will pass the correct DTB to
>>>> the kernel without need for quirks.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that each variant is somewhat incompatible (and hence needs
>>>> its own DTB).
>>>
>>> In theory it might work, in practice this does not. Ludovic mentioned that they
>>> have 27 different DTBs in use at the moment. At a relatively common 60k per DTB
>>> that’s 27x60k = 1.6MB of DTBs, that need to be installed.
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>> Or you can install the correct DTB on the board.  You trust your manufacturing line
>> to install the correct resistors.  You trust your manufacturing line to install the
>> correct kernel version (eg an updated version to resolve a security issue).
>>
>> I thought the DT blob was supposed to follow the same standard that other OS's or
>> bootloaders understood.  Are you willing to break that?  (This is one of those
>> ripples I mentioned in my other emails.)
>>
> 
> Trust no-one.
> 
> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn’t understand which makes people
> who push product quite mad.
> 
> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit
> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability.
> 
> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem.
> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what,
> instead of turning a profit you’re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit
> per unit.

I'm not installing physical components manually.  Why would I be installing software
manually?  (rhetorical question)

> 
> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences
> for a few million units. 

And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works?

> 
> And frankly I don’t care what other OSes do. If you were to take a look at the sorry DT support
> they have you’d be amazed.
> 
> I would be very surprised if there’s another OS out there that can boot with a late Linux DTB.
>  
>> -Frank
> 
> Regards
> 
> — Pantelis
> 
> PS. For a real use case please take a look at the answer Guenter gave on this thread a little
> while back.
> 

My previous comments were written after reading Guenter's comment.

-Frank

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