Message-ID: <CAAObsKDYV=Hyz0XcPkyD6=hu4WKk7PHGdSMOCZxbh_vMKHS32Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 1 May 2015 11:02:19 +0200
From:	Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@...labora.com>
To:	Chirantan Ekbote <chirantan@...omium.org>
Cc:	Olof Johansson <olof@...om.net>,
	John Stultz <john.stultz@...aro.org>,
	Bastien Nocera <hadess@...ess.net>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	snanda@...omium.org
Subject: Re: A desktop environment[1] kernel wishlist

On 30 April 2015 at 20:54, Chirantan Ekbote <chirantan@...omium.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Olof Johansson <olof@...om.net> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 10:10 AM, John Stultz <john.stultz@...aro.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Bastien Nocera <hadess@...ess.net> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 2014-10-21 at 10:04 -0700, John Stultz wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Bastien Nocera <hadess@...ess.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Hey,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > GNOME has had discussions with kernel developers in the past, and,
>>>>> > fortunately, in some cases we were able to make headway.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There are however a number of items that we still don't have
>>>>> > solutions
>>>>> > for, items that kernel developers might not realise we'd like to
>>>>> > rely
>>>>> > on, or don't know that we'd make use of if merged.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I've posted this list at:
>>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/BastienNocera/KernelWishlist
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Let me know on-list or off-list if you have any comments about
>>>>> > those, so
>>>>> > I can update the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for: 'Export of "wake reason" when the system wakes up (rtc alarm,
>>>>> lid open, etc.) and wakealarm (/sys/class/rtc/foo/wakealarm)
>>>>> documentation'
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you expand more on the rational for the need here? Is this for UI
>>>>> for power debugging, or something else?
>>>>
>>>> This is pretty much what I had in mind:
>>>> https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/lucid-sleep
>>>>
>>>> I guess I didn't make myself understood.
>>>
>>> My, admittedly quick skim, of that design document seems to suggest
>>> that lucid sleep would be a new kernel state. That would keep the
>>> kernel in charge of determining the state transitions (ie:
>>> SUSPEND-(alarm)->LUCID-(wakelock
>>> release)->SUSPEND-(alarm)->LUCID-(power-button)->AWAKE). Then it seems
>>> userspace would be able to query the current state. This avoids some
>>> of the races I was concerned with trying to detect which irq woke us
>>> from suspend from userspace.
>>>
>
> Tomeu has been working on making things so that we don't need a new
> kernel state.  Adding him on cc so he can correct me if I say
> something wrong.  The current idea is to have userspace runtime
> suspend any unneeded devices before starting a suspend.  This way the
> kernel will leave them alone at resume.  This behavior already exists
> in the mainline kernel.

This is right, I have one series on flight about removing any
non-runtime device resumes from my test platform (a nyan-big) and
another about entering suspend-to-idle with ticks frozen (also on
Tegra124/nyan-big).

> Getting the wakeup reason can be accomplished
> by having the kernel emit a uevent with the wakeup reason.  This is
> the only change that would be necessary.

My current opinion is that for ChromeOS there's no need for the kernel
to communicate a wakeup reason to userspace. From what I know it
should be enough for powerd/upower/whatever to constantly monitor all
relevant input devices and that should tell if the wakeup was caused
by user activity or not.

Once userspace is thawed, the power management daemon would read any
pending events from the input devices and would decide whether to stay
on dark resume or whether to unfreeze renderer daemons and power up
the display, unpause any audio streams, etc.

For the GNOME folks, this is how it's done in ChromeOS:

https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform2/+/master/power_manager/powerd/system/input_watcher.cc

Of course, this depends on events not getting lost. In the ChromeOS
case, the firmware is under the control of the OS developers, so any
bugs can be fixed.

For GNOME and other desktop environments who aim to run on systems
whose firmware cannot be fixed, I think it could make sense for the
kernel to synthesize such events if it happens to have enough
information to do so.

Besides this issue, I think that what "only" remains to be done in the
kernel is to speed up resumes so no hacks are needed downstream. The
infrastructure for this already exists in the form of
power.direct_complete and suspend-to-idle and the work that remains is
mostly platform-specific.

This is to say that GNOME could start implementing lucid sleep right
now, though the user experience might not be ideal yet because resumes
might take longer than desired. But it might not matter to GNOME as
much as it does to ChromeOS because they aren't in control of the hw
anyway?

Regards,

Tomeu

>>> That said, the Power Manager section in that document sounds a little
>>> racy as it seems to rely on asking userspace if suspend is ok, rather
>>> then using userspace wakelocks, so I'm not sure how well baked this
>>> doc is.
>>>
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.  If you're saying
> that the kernel is asking userspace if suspend is ok, then I can say
> that that's definitely not the case.  Currently from the kernel's
> perspective a lucid sleep resume isn't really different from a regular
> resume.  We have a hack in each driver that we care about that
> basically boils down to an if statement that skips re-initialization
> if we are entering lucid sleep.  If userspace tries to access that
> device in lucid sleep, it just gets an error.  This has actually
> caused us some headache (see the GPU process section of the doc),
> which is why we'd like to switch to using the runtime suspend approach
> I mentioned above.
>
> If instead you're saying that the power manager needs to ask the rest
> of userspace whether suspend is ok, you can think of the current
> mechanism as a sort of timed wake lock.  Daemons that care about lucid
> sleep register with the power manager when they start up.  The power
> manager then waits for these daemons to report readiness while in
> lucid sleep before starting another suspend.  So each daemon
> effectively acquires a wake lock when the system enters lucid sleep
> and releases the wake lock when it reports readiness to the power
> manager or the timeout occurs.
>
>>> Olof: Can you comment on who's working on that design doc?   Also the
>>> discussion around using freezing cgroups separately to distinguish
>>> between lucid and awake is interesting, but I wonder if we need to
>>> make wakeup_sources/wakelocks cgroup aware, or has that already been
>>> done?
>>
>
> Currently cgroup process management is handled by the Chrome browser
> since the only processes we freeze are Chrome renderers.  A renderer
> is basically a process that hosts the content for a single tab,
> extension, plugin, etc.  Freezing occurs when the system is about to
> enter suspend from the fully awake state and thawing occurs during the
> reverse transition.  We've made no changes to the cgroup code and have
> been using it as is.
>
>>
>> Sameer and Chirantan have both been deeply involved in that project,
>> adding them on cc here.
>>
>>
>> -Olof
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