linux-kernel - Re: kdbus: to merge or not to merge?

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Message-ID: <CANq1E4SkUWWXuksJnWzXd5KStZx-T6q6+WWTHdrQz_WiMry4Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 6 Aug 2015 10:04:57 +0200
From:	David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>
To:	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
Cc:	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Djalal Harouni <tixxdz@...ndz.org>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Havoc Pennington <havoc.pennington@...il.com>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Tom Gundersen <teg@...m.no>, Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org>,
	"Kalle A. Sandstrom" <ksandstr@....fi>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>, cee1 <fykcee1@...il.com>
Subject: Re: kdbus: to merge or not to merge?

Hi

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:10 AM, David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:09 AM, David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com> wrote:
>>>> This is a bug in the proxy (which is already fixed).
>>>
>>> Should I expect to see it in Rawhide soon?
>>
>> Use this workaround until it does:
>>
>>     $ DBUS_SYSTEM_BUS_ADDRESS="kernel:path=/sys/fs/kdbus/0-system/bus"
>> ./your-binary
>>
>
> Which binary is supposed to be run like that?

Your test.

>>> Anyway, the broadcasts that I intended to exercise were
>>> KDBUS_ITEM_ID_REMOVE.  Those appear to be broadcast to everyone,
>>> irrespective of "policy", so long as the "match" thingy allows it.
>>
>> Matches are opt-in, not opt-out. Nobody will get this message unless
>> they opt in.
>>
>
> And what opts in?  Either something's broken, or there's a different
> scalabilty problem, or a whole pile of kdbus-using programs in Fedora
> Rawhide do, in fact, opt in.

See Daniel's explanation. If applications subscribe to all
notifications, they get what they asked for. I recommend filing bug
reports for the applications in question.

>          Given that all existing prototype userspace that I'm aware of
> (systemd and its consumers) apparently opts in, I don't really care
> that the feature is opt-in.

This is just plain wrong. Out of the dozens of dbus applications, you
found like 9 which are buggy? Two of them are already fixed, the
maintainers of the other ones notified.
I'd be interested where you got this notion that "all existing
prototype userspace [...] opts in".

> Also, given things like this:
>
> commit d27c8057699d164648b7d8c1559fa6529998f89d
> Author: David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>
> Date:   Tue May 26 09:30:14 2015 +0200
>
>     kdbus: forward ID notifications to everyone
>
> it really does seem to me that the point of these ID notifications is
> for everyone to get them.

It's not. This patch just opens the policy so everyone can see those
notifications. By default, it's not delivered to anyone.

> Also, you haven't addressed the memory usage issues --

..because it doesn't change anything. If your IPC is message based and
async, _someone_ needs to buffer. I don't see the difference between
buffering locally on !EPOLLOUT or buffering in a shmem pool. In both
cases, clients have control over the buffer size. If you disagree,
please _elaborate_.

Thanks
David
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