Message-ID: <5602746C.1030006@suse.com>
Date:	Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:44:12 +0200
From:	Juergen Gross <jgross@...e.com>
To:	Dario Faggioli <dario.faggioli@...rix.com>,
	George Dunlap <george.dunlap@...rix.com>
Cc:	"xen-devel@...ts.xenproject.org" <xen-devel@...ts.xenproject.org>,
	Andrew Cooper <Andrew.Cooper3@...rix.com>,
	"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@...not-panic.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	David Vrabel <david.vrabel@...rix.com>,
	Boris Ostrovsky <boris.ostrovsky@...cle.com>,
	Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@...citrix.com>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the scheduling
 domain hierarchy

On 09/23/2015 10:30 AM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> On Wed, 2015-09-23 at 06:36 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
>
>> On 09/22/2015 06:22 PM, George Dunlap wrote:
>>> Juergen / Dario, could one of you summarize your two approaches,
>>> and the
>>> (alleged) advantages and disadvantages of each one?
>>
>> Okay, I'll have a try:
>>
> Thanks for this! ;-)
>
>> The problem we want to solve:
>> -----------------------------
>>
>> The Linux kernel is gathering cpu topology data during boot via the
>> CPUID instruction on each processor coming online. This data is
>> primarily used in the scheduler to decide to which cpu a thread
>> should
>> be migrated when this seems to be necessary. There are other users of
>> the topology information in the kernel (e.g. some drivers try to do
>> optimizations like core-specific queues/lists).
>>
>> When started in a virtualized environment the obtained data is next
>> to
>> useless or even wrong, as it is reflecting only the status of the
>> time
>> of booting the system. Scheduling of the (v)cpus done by the
>> hypervisor
>> is changing the topology beneath the feet of the Linux kernel without
>> reflecting this in the gathered topology information. So any
>> decisions
>> taken based on that data will be clueless and possibly just wrong.
>>
> Exactly.
>
>> The minimal solution is to change the topology data in the kernel in
>> a
>> way that all cpus are regarded as equal regarding their relation to
>> each
>> other (e.g. when migrating a thread to another cpu no cpu is
>> preferred
>> as a target).
>>
>> The topology information of the CPUID instruction is, however, even
>> accessible form user mode and might be used for licensing purposes of
>> any user program (e.g. by limiting the software to run on a specific
>> number of cores or sockets). So just mangling the data returned by
>> CPUID in the hypervisor seems not to be a general solution, while we
>> might want to do it at least optionally in the future.
>>
> Yep. It turned out that, although being what started all this, CPUID
> handling is a somewhat related but mostly independent problem. :-)
>
>> In the future we might want to support either dynamic topology
>> updates
>> or be able to tell the kernel to use some of the topology data, e.g.
>> when pinning vcpus.
>>
> Indeed. At least for the latter. Dynamic looks really difficult to me,
> but indeed it would be ideal. Let's see.
>
>> Solution 1 (Dario):
>> -------------------
>>
>> Don't use the CPUID derived topology information in the Linux
>> scheduler,
>> but let it use a simple "flat" topology by setting own scheduler
>> domain
>> data under Xen.
>>
>> Advantages:
>> + very clean solution regarding the scheduler interface
>>
> Yes, this is, I think, one of the main advantages of the patch. The
> scheduler is offering an interface to architectures to define their
> topology requirements and I'm using it, for specifying our topology
> requirements: the tool for the job. :-D
>
>> + scheduler decisions are based on a minimal data set
>> + small patch
>>
>> Disadvantages:
>> - covers the scheduler only, drivers still use the "wrong" data
>>
> This is a good point. It was the patch's purpose, TBH, but it's
> certainly true that, if we need something similar elsewhere, we need to
> do more.
>
>> - a little bit hacky regarding some NUMA architectures (needs either
>> a
>>     hook in the code dealing with that architecture or multiple
>> scheduler
>>     domain data overwrites)
>>
> As I said in my other email, I'll double check (yes, I also think this
> is about AMD boxes with intra-socket NUMA nodes).
>
>> - future enhancements will make the solution less clean (either need
>>     duplicating scheduler domain data or some new hooks in scheduler
>>     domain interface)
>>
> This one, I'm not sure I understand.

What would you do for keeping the topology information of one level,
e.g. hyperthreads, in case we'd have a gang-scheduler in Xen? Either
you would copy the line:

{ cpu_smt_mask, cpu_smt_flags, SD_INIT_NAME(SMT) },

from kernel/sched/core.c into your topology array, or you would add a
way in kernel/sched/core.c to remove all but this entry and add your
entry on top of it.

>
>> Solution 2 (Juergen):
>> ---------------------
>>
>> When booted as a Xen guest modify the topology data built during boot
>> resulting in the same simple "flat" topology as in Dario's solution.
>>
>> Advantages:
>> + the simple topology is seen by all consumers of topology data as
>> the
>>     data itself is modified accordingly
>>
> Yep, that's a good point.
>
>> + small patch
>
>> + future enhancements rather easy by selecting which data to modify
>>
> As for the '-' above about this, I'm not really sure what this means.

In the case mentioned above I just wouldn't zap the
topology_sibling_cpumask in my patch.

>>
>> Disadvantages:
>> - interface to scheduler not as clean as in Dario's approach
>> - scheduler decisions are based on multiple layers of topology data
>>     where one layer would be enough to describe the topology
>>
> This is not too big of a deal, IMO. Not at runtime, at least, as far as
> my investigation went for now. Initialization (of scheduling domains)
> is a bit clumsy in this case, as scheduling domains are created and
> then destroyed/collapsed, but after they are setup, the net effect is
> that there's only one scheduling domain with Juergen's patch too,
> exactly as with mine.
>
>> Dario, are you okay with this summary?
>>
> To most of it, yes, and thanks again for it.
>
> Allow me to add a few points, out of the top of my head:
>
>   * we need to check whether the two approaches have the same
>     performance. In principle, they really should, and early results
>     seems to confirm that, but I'd like to run the full set of benches
>     (and I'll do that ASAP);

Thanks.

>   * I think we want to run even more benchmarks, and run them in
>     different (over)load conditions to better assess the effect of the
>     change
>   * both our patches provides a solution for Xen (for Xen PV guests, at
>     least for now, to be more precise). It is very likely that, e.g.,
>     KVM is in a similar situation, hence it may be worth to look for a
>     more general solution, especially if that buys us something (e.g.,
>     HVM support made easy?)

I wanted to look at this as soon as we've decided which way to go.

I had some discussion with a kvm guy last week and he seemed not to be
convinced they need something else as mangling CPUID (what they already
do).

>
> Thanks and Regards,
> Dario
>
> PS. BTW, Juergen, you're not on IRC, on #xendevel, are you?

I'd like to, but I'd need an invitation. My user name is juergen_gross.


Juergen
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