Date:	Wed, 07 Oct 2015 20:18:16 +0530
From:	PINTU KUMAR <pintu.k@...sung.com>
To:	'Michal Hocko' <mhocko@...nel.org>
Cc:	akpm@...ux-foundation.org, minchan@...nel.org, dave@...olabs.net,
	koct9i@...il.com, rientjes@...gle.com, hannes@...xchg.org,
	penguin-kernel@...ove.sakura.ne.jp, bywxiaobai@....com,
	mgorman@...e.de, vbabka@...e.cz, js1304@...il.com,
	kirill.shutemov@...ux.intel.com, alexander.h.duyck@...hat.com,
	sasha.levin@...cle.com, cl@...ux.com, fengguang.wu@...el.com,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org, cpgs@...sung.com,
	pintu_agarwal@...oo.com, pintu.ping@...il.com,
	vishnu.ps@...sung.com, rohit.kr@...sung.com,
	c.rajkumar@...sung.com, sreenathd@...sung.com
Subject: RE: [PATCH 1/1] mm: vmstat: Add OOM kill count in vmstat counter

Hi,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michal Hocko [mailto:mhocko@...nel.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 9:12 PM
> To: PINTU KUMAR
> Cc: akpm@...ux-foundation.org; minchan@...nel.org; dave@...olabs.net;
> koct9i@...il.com; rientjes@...gle.com; hannes@...xchg.org; penguin-
> kernel@...ove.sakura.ne.jp; bywxiaobai@....com; mgorman@...e.de;
> vbabka@...e.cz; js1304@...il.com; kirill.shutemov@...ux.intel.com;
> alexander.h.duyck@...hat.com; sasha.levin@...cle.com; cl@...ux.com;
> fengguang.wu@...el.com; linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org; linux-mm@...ck.org;
> cpgs@...sung.com; pintu_agarwal@...oo.com; pintu.ping@...il.com;
> vishnu.ps@...sung.com; rohit.kr@...sung.com; c.rajkumar@...sung.com;
> sreenathd@...sung.com
> Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: vmstat: Add OOM kill count in vmstat counter
> 
> On Tue 06-10-15 12:29:52, PINTU KUMAR wrote:
> [...]
> > > OK, that would explain why the second counter is so much larger than
> > > oom_stall.
> > > And that alone should have been a red flag IMO. Why should be memcg
> > > OOM killer events accounted together with the global? How do you
> > > distinguish the two?
> > >
> > Actually, here, we are just interested in knowing oom_kill. Let it be
> > either global, memcg or others.
> > Once we know there are oom kill happening, we can easily find it by
> > enabling logs.
> > Normally in production system, all system logs will be disabled.
> 
> This doesn't make much sense to me. So you find out that _an oom killer_ was
> invoked but you have logs disabled. What now? You can hardly find out what
> has happened and why it has happened. What is the point then?
> Wait for another one to come? This might be never.
> 
Ok, let me explain the real case that we have experienced.
In our case, we have low memory killer in user space itself that invoked based
on some memory threshold.
Something like, below 100MB threshold starting killing until it comes back to
150MB.
During our long duration ageing test (more than 72 hours) we observed that many
applications are killed.
Now, we were not sure if killing happens in user space or kernel space.
When we saw the kernel logs, it generated many logs such as;
/var/log/{messages, messages.0, messages.1, messages.2, messages.3, etc.}
But, none of the logs contains kernel OOM messages. Although there were some LMK
kill in user space.
Then in another round of test we keep dumping _dmesg_ output to a file after
each iteration.
After 3 days of tests this time we observed that dmesg output dump contains many
kernel oom messages.
Now, every time this dumping is not feasible. And instead of counting manually
in log file, we wanted to know number of oom kills happened during this tests.
So we decided to add a counter in /proc/vmstat to track the kernel oom_kill, and
monitor it during our ageing test.
Basically, we wanted to tune our user space LMK killer for different threshold
values, so that we can completely avoid the kernel oom kill.
So, just by looking into this counter, we could able to tune the LMK threshold
values without depending on the kernel log messages.

Also, in most of the system /var/log/messages are not present and we just
depends on kernel dmesg output, which is petty small for longer run.
Even if we reduce the loglevel to 4, it may not be suitable to capture all logs.

> What is even more confusing is the mixing of memcg and global oom conditions.
> They are really different things. Memcg API will even give you notification
about
> the OOM event.
> 
Ok, you are suggesting to divide the oom_kill counter into 2 parts (global &
memcg) ?
May be something like:
nr_oom_victims
nr_memcg_oom_victims

> [...]
> > > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough here. I was talking about oom_stall
> > > counter here not oom_kill_count one.
> > >
> > Ok, I got your point.
> > Oom_kill_process, is called from 2 places:
> > 1) out_of_memory
> > 2) mem_cgroup_out_of_memory
> >
> > And, out_of_memory is actually called from 3 places:
> > 1) alloc_pages_may_oom
> > 2) pagefault_out_of_memory
> > 3) moom_callback (sysirq.c)
> >
> > Thus, in this case, the oom_stall counter can be added in 4 places (in
> > the beginning).
> > 1) alloc_pages_may_oom
> > 2) mem_cgroup_out_of_memory
> > 3) pagefault_out_of_memory
> > 4) moom_callback (sysirq.c)
> >
> > For, case {2,3,4}, we could have actually called at one place in
> > out_of_memory,
> 
> Why would you even consider 4 for oom_stall? This is an administrator order to
> kill a memory hog. The system might be in a good shape just the memory hog is
> misbehaving. I realize this is not a usual usecase but if oom_stall is
supposed to
> measure a memory pressure of some sort then binding it to a user action is
> wrong thing to do.
> 
I think, oom_stall is not so important. So I think we can drop it. It also
creates confusion with memcg and others and makes it more complicated. So I am
thinking to remove it.
The more important thing is : nr_oom_victims.
I think this should be sufficient.

> > But this result into calling it 2 times because alloc_pages_may_oom
> > also call out_of_memory.
> > If there is any better idea, please let me know.
> 
> I think you are focusing too much on the implementation before you are clear
in
> what should be the desired semantic.
> 
> > > > > What is it supposed to tell us? How many times the system had to
> > > > > go into emergency OOM steps? How many times the direct reclaim
> > > > > didn't make any progress so we can consider the system OOM?
> > > > >
> > > > Yes, exactly, oom_stall can tell, how many times OOM is invoked in
> > > > the system.
> > > > Yes, it can also tell how many times direct_reclaim fails completely.
> > > > Currently, we don't have any counter for direct_reclaim success/fail.
> > >
> > > So why don't we add one? Direct reclaim failure is a clearly defined
> > > event and it also can be evaluated reasonably against allocstall.
> > >
> > Yes, direct_reclaim success/fail is also planned ahead.
> > May be something like:
> > direct_reclaim_alloc_success
> > direct_reclaim_alloc_fail
> 
> We already have alloc_stall so all_stall_noprogress or whatever better name
> should be sufficient.
> 
Ok, this we can discuss later and finalize on the name.

> [...]
> 
> > > I am still not sure how useful this counter would be, though. Sure
> > > the log ringbuffer might overflow (the risk can be reduced by
> > > reducing the
> > > loglevel) but how much it would help to know that we had additional
> > > N OOM victims? From my experience checking the OOM reports which are
> > > still in the logbuffer are sufficient to see whether there is a
> > > memory leak, pinned memory or a continuous memory pressure. Your
> > > experience might be different so it would be nice to mention that in the
> changelog.
> >
> > Ok.
> > As I said earlier, normally all logs will be disabled in production system.
> > But, we can access /proc/vmstat. The oom would have happened in the
> > system Earlier, but the logs would have over-written.
> > The /proc/vmstat is the only counter which can tell, if ever system
> > entered into oom cases.
> > Once we know for sure that oom happened in the system, then we can
> > enable all logs in the system to reproduce the oom scenarios to analyze
> further.
> 
> Why reducing the loglevel is not sufficient here? The output should be
> considerably reduced and chances to overflow the ringbuffer reduced as well.
> 
I think, I explained it above.
In most of the system /var/log/messages are not present and we just depends on
kernel dmesg output, which is petty small for longer run.

> > Also it can help in initial tuning of the system for the memory needs
> > of the system.
> > In embedded world, we normally try to avoid the system to enter into
> > kernel OOM as far as possible.
> 
> Which means that you should follow a completely different metric IMO.
> oom_stall is way too late. It is at the time when no reclaim progress could be
> done and we are OOM already.
> 
> > For example, in Android, we have LMK (low memory killer) driver that
> > controls the OOM behavior. But most of the time these LMK threshold
> > are statically controlled.
> >
> > Now with this oom counter we can dynamically control the LMK behavior.
> > For example, in LMK we can check, if ever oom_stall becomes 1, that
> > means system is hitting OOM state. At this stage we can immediately
> > trigger the OOM killing from user space or LMK driver.
> 
> If you see oom_stall then you are basically OOM and the global OOM killer will
> fire. Intervening with other party just sounds like a terrible idea to me.
> 
> > Similar user case and requirement is there for Tizen that controls OOM
> > from user space (without LMK).
> 
> --
> Michal Hocko
> SUSE Labs

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