Message-ID: <56258B11.9080505@plumgrid.com>
Date:	Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:30:09 -0700
From:	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...mgrid.com>
To:	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
	Hannes Frederic Sowa <hannes@...essinduktion.org>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>
Cc:	davem@...emloft.net, viro@...IV.linux.org.uk, tgraf@...g.ch,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 3/4] bpf: add support for persistent maps/progs

On 10/19/15 3:17 PM, Daniel Borkmann wrote:
> On 10/19/2015 10:48 PM, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>> On 10/19/15 1:03 PM, Hannes Frederic Sowa wrote:
>>>
>>> I doubt it will stay a lightweight feature as it should not be in the
>>> responsibility of user space to provide those debug facilities.
>>
>> It feels we're talking past each other.
>> I want to solve 'persistent map' problem.
>> debugging of maps/progs, hierarchy, etc are all nice to have,
>> but different issues.
>
> Ok, so you are saying that this file system will have *only* regular
> files that are to be considered nodes for eBPF maps and progs. Nothing
> else will ever be added to it? Yet, eBPF map and prog nodes are *not*
> *regular files* to me, this seems odd.
>
> As soon as you are starting to add additional folders that contain
> files dumping additional meta data, etc, you basically end up on a
> bit of similar concept to sysfs, no?

as we discussed in this thread and earlier during plumbers I think
it would be good to expose key/values somehow in this fs.
'how' is a big question.
But regardless which path we take, sysfs is too rigid.
For the sake of argument say we do every key as a new file in bpffs.
It's not very scalable, but comparing to sysfs it's better
(resource wise).
If we decide to add bpf syscall command to expose map details we
can provide pretty printer to it in a form of printk-like string
or via some schema passed to syscall, so that keys(file names) can
look properly in bpffs.
The above and other ideas all possible in bpffs, but not possible
in sysfs.

>> In case of persistent maps I imagine unprivileged process would want
>> to use it eventually as well, so this requirement already kills cdev
>> approach for me, since I don't think we ever let unprivileged apps
>> create cdev with syscall.
>
> Hmm, I see. So far the discussion was only about having this for privileged
> users (also in this fs patch). F.e. privileged system daemons could setup
> and distribute progs/maps to consumers, etc (f.e. seccomp and tc case).

It completely makes sense to restrict it to admin today, but design
should not prevent relaxing it in the future.

> When we start lifting this, eBPF maps by its own will become a real kernel
> IPC facility for unprivileged Linux applications (independently whether
> they are connected to an actual eBPF program). Those kernel IPC facilities
> that are anchored in the file system like named pipes and Unix domain
> sockets
> are indicated as such as special files, no?

not everything in unix is a model that should be followed.
af_unix with name[0]!=0 is a bad api that wasn't thought through.
Thankfully Linux improved it with abstract names that don't use
special files.
bpf maps obviously is not an IPC (either pinned or not).

>> sure, then we can force all bpffs to have the same hierarchy and mounted
>> in /sys/kernel/bpf location. That would be the same.
>
> That would imply to have a mount_single() file system (like f.e. tracefs
> and
> securityfs), right?

Probably. I'm not sure whether it should be single fs or we allow
multiple mount points. There are pro and con for both.

> So you'd loose having various mounts in different namespaces. And if you
> allow various mount points, how would that /facilitate/ to an admin to
> identify all eBPF objects/resources currently present in the system?

if it's single mount point there are no issues, but would be nice
to separate users and namespaces somehow.

> Or to an application developer finding possible mount points for his own
> application so that bpf(2) syscall to create these nodes succeeds? Would
> you make mounting also unprivileged? What if various distros have these
> mount points at different locations? What should unprivileged applications
> do to know that they can use these locations for themselves?

mounting is root only of course and having standard location answers
all of these questions.

> Also, since they are only regular files, one can only try and find these
> objects based on their naming schemes, which seems to get a bit odd in case
> this file system also carries (perhaps future?) other regular files that
> are not eBPF map and program-special.

not sure what you meant. If names are given by kernel, there are no
problem finding them. If by user, we'd file attributes like the way
you did with xattr.

>> It feels you're pushing for cdev only because of that potential
>> debugging need. Did you actually face that need? I didn't and
>> don't like to add 'nice to have' feature until real need comes.
>
> I think this discussion arose, because the question of how flexible we are
> in future to extend this facility. Nothing more.

Exactly and cdev style pushes us into the corner of traditional
cdev with ioctl which I don't think is flexible enough.

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