linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH 4/4] locking: Introduce smp_cond

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Message-ID: <CA+55aFyXu5iFJfdm7o-RKUm_9a850iSzeM+whmtUAotkY0EvTw@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:17:17 -0800
From:	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
To:	Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>
Cc:	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Paul McKenney <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	boqun.feng@...il.com, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@....net>,
	Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>,
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 4/4] locking: Introduce smp_cond_acquire()

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 10:08:24AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:29 AM, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org> wrote:
>> > +#define smp_cond_acquire(cond) do {            \
>> > +       while (!(cond))                         \
>> > +               cpu_relax();                    \
>> > +       smp_read_barrier_depends(); /* ctrl */  \
>> > +       smp_rmb(); /* ctrl + rmb := acquire */  \
>> > +} while (0)
>>
>> This code makes absolutely no sense.
>>
>> smp_read_barrier_depends() is about a memory barrier where there is a
>> data dependency between two accesses. The "depends" is very much about
>> the data dependency, and very much about *nothing* else.
>
> Paul wasn't so sure, which I think is why smp_read_barrier_depends()
> is already used in, for example, READ_ONCE_CTRL:
>
>   http://lkml.kernel.org/r/20151007154003.GJ3910@linux.vnet.ibm.com

Quoting the alpha architecture manual is kind of pointless, when NO
OTHER ARCHITECTURE OUT THERE guararantees that whole "read +
conditional orders wrt subsequent writes" _either_.

(Again, with the exception of x86, which has the sane "we honor causality")

Alpha isn't special. And smp_read_barrier_depends() hasn't magically
become something new.

If people think that control dependency needs a memory barrier on
alpha, then it damn well needs on on all other weakly ordered
architectuers too, afaik.

Either that "you cannot finalize a write unless all conditionals it
depends on are finalized" is true or it is not. That argument has
*never* been about some architecture-specific memory ordering model,
as far as I know.

As to READ_ONCE_CTRL - two wrongs don't make a right.

That smp_read_barrier_depends() there doesn't make any sense either.

And finally, the alpha architecture manual actually does have the
notion of "Dependence Constraint" (5.6.1.7) that talks about writes
that depend on previous reads (where "depends" is explicitly spelled
out to be about conditionals, write data _or_ write address). They are
actually constrained on alpha too.

Note that a "Dependence Constraint" is not a memory barrier, because
it only affects that particular chain of dependencies. So it doesn't
order other things in *general*, but it does order a particular read
with a particular sef of subsequent write. Which is all we guarantee
on anything else too wrt the whole control dependencies.

The smp_read_barrier_depends() is a *READ BARRIER*. It's about a
*read* that depends on a previous read. Now, it so happens that alpha
doesn't have a "read-to-read" barrier, and it's implemented as a full
barrier, but it really should be read as a "smp_rmb().

Yes, yes, alpha has the worst memory ordering ever, and the worst
barriers for that insane memory ordering, but that still does not make
alpha "magically able to reorder more than physically or logically
possible". We don't add barriers that don't make sense just because
the alpha memory orderings are insane.

Paul? I really disagree with how you have totally tried to re-purpose
smp_read_barrier_depends() in ways that are insane and make no sense.
That is not a control dependency. If it was, then PPC and ARM would
need to make it a real barrier too. I really don't see why you have
singled out alpha as the victim of your "let's just randomly change
the rules".

> In this case, control dependencies are only referring to READ -> WRITE
> ordering, so they are honoured by ARM and PowerPC.

Do ARM and PPC actually guarantee the generic "previous reads always
order before subsequent writes"?

Because if that's the issue, then we should perhaps add a new ordering
primitive that says that (ie "smp_read_to_write_barrier()"). That
could be a useful thing in general, where we currently use "smp_mb()"
to order an earlier read with a later write.

                   Linus
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