Date:	Tue, 16 Feb 2016 20:51:04 -0800
From:	Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>
To:	Tom Zanussi <tom.zanussi@...ux.intel.com>
Cc:	rostedt@...dmis.org, masami.hiramatsu.pt@...achi.com,
	namhyung@...nel.org, peterz@...radead.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 00/10] Add trace event support to eBPF

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 04:35:27PM -0600, Tom Zanussi wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-02-14 at 01:02 +0100, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:11:18AM -0600, Tom Zanussi wrote:

> > this hist triggers belong in the kernel. BPF already can do
> > way more complex aggregation and histograms.
> 
> Way more?  I still can't accomplish with eBPF some of the most basic and
> helpful use cases that I can with hist triggers, such as using
> stacktraces as hash keys.  And the locking in the eBPF hashmap
> implementation prevents anything like the function_hist [1] tracer from
> being implemented on top of it:

Both statements are not true.
In the link from previous email take a look at funccount_example.txt:
# ./funccount 'vfs_*'
Tracing... Ctrl-C to end.
^C
ADDR             FUNC                          COUNT
ffffffff811efe81 vfs_create                        1
ffffffff811f24a1 vfs_rename                        1
ffffffff81215191 vfs_fsync_range                   2
ffffffff81231df1 vfs_lock_file                    30
ffffffff811e8dd1 vfs_fstatat                     152
ffffffff811e8d71 vfs_fstat                       154
ffffffff811e4381 vfs_write                       166
ffffffff811e8c71 vfs_getattr_nosec               262
ffffffff811e8d41 vfs_getattr                     262
ffffffff811e3221 vfs_open                        264
ffffffff811e4251 vfs_read                        470
Detaching...

And this is done without adding new code to the kernel.

Another example is offwaketime that uses two stack traces as
part of single key.

> > Take a look at all the tools written on top of it:
> > https://github.com/iovisor/bcc/tree/master/tools
> 
> That's great, but it's all out-of-tree.  Supporting out-of-tree users
> has never been justification for merging in-kernel code (or for blocking
> it from being merged). 

huh? perf is the only in-tree user space project.
All others tools and libraries are out-of-tree and that makes sense.

Actually would be great to merge bcc with perf eventually, but choice
of C++ isn't going to make it easy. The only real difference
between perf+bpf and bcc is that bcc integrates clang/llvm
as a library whereas perf+bpf deals with elf files and standalone compiler.
There are pros and cons for both and it's great that both are actively
growing and gaining user traction.

> I have systems with tiny amounts of memory and storage that have zero
> chance of ever having a compiler or Python running on them.  It's

if your system is so short on memory, then you don't want to bloat
the kernel with histtriggers especially since they're not
going to be used 24/7 due to the overhead.

> I haven't measured the overhead of the cost of accessing data from the
> trace buffers, but I do know that the hist triggers have no problem
> logging millions of events per second.
> 
> In the past I have measured the basic hist triggers mechanism and found
> it to be somewhat faster than the ftrace function tracer itself:
> 
>     over a kernel compile:
> 
>     no tracing:
> 
>       real   110m47.817s
>       user    99m34.144s
>       sys      7m19.928s
... 
>     function_hist tracer enabled:
>       real   128m44.682s
>       user   100m29.080s
>       sys     26m52.880s

78% of cpu time is in user space. Not a great test of kernel
datapath, but 'sys 7m19.928s vs 26m52.880s' actually means that
the kernel part is 3 times slower. That is your enormous overhead.

2 hours to compile the kernel. ouch. that must be very low end device.
For comparison full kernel build on my box:
real    2m49.693s
user    66m44.204s
sys     5m29.257s

> One point I would make about this though is that while it might be
> slower to access this particular field that way, the user who's just
> trying to get something done doesn't need to know about
> bpf_get_current_pid_tgid() and can just look at the available fields in
> the trace event format file and use them directly - trading off
> efficiency for ease-of-use.

sorry, but nack for such 'ease-of-use'.
We're not going to sacrifice performance even if there are few raw edges
in the user space. User tools can be improved, new compilers and
front-ends written, but kernel API will stay fixed and must be fast
from the start.

> surrounding that even in the comments.  I guess I'd have to spend a few
> hours reading the BPF code and the verifier even, to understand that.

not sure what is your goal. Runtime lookup via field name is not acceptable
whether it's cached or not. There is no place for strcmp in the critical path.

> > please cc netdev every time kernel/bpf/ is touched.
> > 
> 
> Why netdev?  This has nothing to do with networking.

because that's what MAINTAINERS file says.
kernel/bpf/* is used for both tracing and networking and all significant
changes should be going through net-next to avoid conflicts and
to make sure that active developers can do a thorough review.

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