Message-ID: <CALYGNiNDNT2taFqkhkbtRSXJzE9hFtrJViiaEdkPc3tbps+_ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 19 Feb 2016 09:57:28 +0300
From:	Konstantin Khlebnikov <koct9i@...il.com>
To:	Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>
Cc:	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
	"linux-mm@...ck.org" <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>, Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	kernel-team@...com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] proc: do not include shmem and driver pages in /proc/meminfo::Cached

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Konstantin Khlebnikov <koct9i@...il.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 1:57 AM, Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Johannes Weiner wrote:
>>
>>> Even before we added MemAvailable, users knew that page cache is
>>> easily convertible to free memory on pressure, and estimated their
>>> "available" memory by looking at the sum of MemFree, Cached, Buffers.
>>> However, "Cached" is calculated using NR_FILE_PAGES, which includes
>>> shmem and random driver pages inserted into the page tables; neither
>>> of which are easily reclaimable, or reclaimable at all. Reclaiming
>>> shmem requires swapping, which is slow. And unlike page cache, which
>>> has fairly conservative dirty limits, all of shmem needs to be written
>>> out before becoming evictable. Without swap, shmem is not evictable at
>>> all. And driver pages certainly never are.
>>>
>>> Calling these pages "Cached" is misleading and has resulted in broken
>>> formulas in userspace. They misrepresent the memory situation and
>>> cause either waste or unexpected OOM kills. With 64-bit and per-cpu
>>> memory we are way past the point where the relationship between
>>> virtual and physical memory is meaningful and users can rely on
>>> overcommit protection. OOM kills can not be avoided without wasting
>>> enormous amounts of memory this way. This shifts the management burden
>>> toward userspace, toward applications monitoring their environment and
>>> adjusting their operations. And so where statistics like /proc/meminfo
>>> used to be more informational, we have more and more software relying
>>> on them to make automated decisions based on utilization.
>>>
>>> But if userspace is supposed to take over responsibility, it needs a
>>> clear and accurate kernel interface to base its judgement on. And one
>>> of the requirements is certainly that memory consumers with wildly
>>> different reclaimability are not conflated. Adding MemAvailable is a
>>> good step in that direction, but there is software like Sigar[1] in
>>> circulation that might not get updated anytime soon. And even then,
>>> new users will continue to go for the intuitive interpretation of the
>>> Cached item. We can't blame them. There are years of tradition behind
>>> it, starting with the way free(1) and vmstat(8) have always reported
>>> free, buffers, cached. And try as we might, using "Cached" for
>>> unevictable memory is never going to be obvious.
>>>
>>> The semantics of Cached including shmem and kernel pages have been
>>> this way forever, dictated by the single-LRU implementation rather
>>> than optimal semantics. So it's an uncomfortable proposal to change it
>>> now. But what other way to fix this for existing users? What other way
>>> to make the interface more intuitive for future users? And what could
>>> break by removing it now? I guess somebody who already subtracts Shmem
>>> from Cached.
>>>
>>> What are your thoughts on this?
>>
>> My thoughts are NAK.  A misleading stat is not so bad as a
>> misleading stat whose meaning we change in some random kernel.
>>
>> By all means improve Documentation/filesystems/proc.txt on Cached.
>> By all means promote Active(file)+Inactive(file)-Buffers as often a
>> better measure (though Buffers itself is obscure to me - is it intended
>> usually to approximate resident FS metadata?).  By all means work on
>> /proc/meminfo-v2 (though that may entail dispiritingly long discussions).
>>
>> We have to assume that Cached has been useful to some people, and that
>> they've learnt to subtract Shmem from it, if slow or no swap concerns them.
>>
>> Added Konstantin to Cc: he's had valuable experience of people learning
>> to adapt to the numbers that we put out.
>>
>
> I think everything will ok. Subtraction of shmem isn't widespread practice,
> more like secret knowledge. This wasn't documented and people who use
> this should be aware that this might stop working at any time. So, ACK.

Actually, NR_FILE_PAGES could try to retire after that.
Where only few places where it is used and looks like it's easy to replace it
with something else, even more accurate.

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