Message-ID: <573B6DC8.2030902@hurleysoftware.com>
Date:	Tue, 17 May 2016 12:15:20 -0700
From:	Peter Hurley <peter@...leysoftware.com>
To:	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>, paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com
Cc:	Waiman Long <Waiman.Long@....com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Davidlohr Bueso <dave@...olabs.net>,
	Jason Low <jason.low2@...com>,
	Dave Chinner <david@...morbit.com>,
	Scott J Norton <scott.norton@....com>,
	Douglas Hatch <doug.hatch@....com>, kcc@...gle.com,
	dvyukov@...gle.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] locking/rwsem: Add reader-owned state to the owner
 field

On 05/16/2016 10:50 AM, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 07:17:42AM -0700, Peter Hurley wrote:
> 
>>>> Correct; which is why we should always use {READ,WRITE}_ONCE() for
>>>> anything that is used locklessly.
>>>
>>> Completely agreed.  Improve readability of code by flagging lockless
>>> shared-memory accesses, help checkers better find bugs, and prevent the
>>> occasional compiler mischief!
>>
>> I think this would be a mistake for 3 reasons:
>>
>> 1. If READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE() is necessary to prevent load/store tearing
>>    of any normally-atomic type (char/int/long/void*), then _every_ access
>>    would require READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE(), thus eliminating any possibility
>>    of compiler optimization (eg. eliding redundant loads) where it would
>>    otherwise be possible.
> 
> Should not really be a problem I think; you already have to be very
> careful when doing lockless stuff.

I think you may not understand my point here.

Consider normal list processing.

Paul added a READ_ONCE() load of head->next to list_empty().
That's because list_empty() is being used locklessly in lots of places,
not just for RCU lists.

Ok, so the load won't be torn. But the store to ->next can, so Paul
added WRITE_ONCE() to some but not all those list primitives too, even
though those aren't being used locklessly.

Note that the compiler _cannot_ optimize those stores even though
they're being used with locks held; IOW, exactly the situation that
volatile-consider-harmful rails against.

Similarly for the load in list_empty() even if it's used with locks held.

As Paul pointed out in his reply, there is no way to address this right now.

What's really needed is separate, not overloaded semantics:

1. "*If* you load or store this value, do it with single memory access, but
    feel free to optimize (elide load/defer store/hoist load/whatever)."

2. "No, seriously, load/store this value regardless of what you think you
    know." == READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE


If we start adding READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE to every lockless load/store,
worse code will be generated even though the vast majority of current use
is safe.


>> 2. Makes a mess of otherwise readable code.
> 
> We have to disagree here; I think code with {READ,WRITE}_ONCE() is more
> readable, as their presence is a clear indication something special is
> up.

I think you and Paul may wildly underestimate the scale of lockless
use in the kernel not currently annotated by READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE().

Even in primitives designed for lockless concurrency like
rwsem and seqlock and sched/core, much less higher order code like
ipc/msg.c and vfs.

The majority of this lockless use is safe if the assumption
that loads/stores are performed atomically for char/short/int/long/void*
hold; in other words usage #1 above.


>> 3. Error-prone; ie., easy to overlook in review.
> 
> lockless stuff is error prone by nature; what's your point?

That lockless use is very common, even outside core functionality, and
needlessly splattering READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE when the existing code
generation is already safe, will not make it better. And that it will be
no safer by adding READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE because plenty of accesses will
be overlooked, like the stores to sem->owner are now.


>> There is no practical difference between _always_ using READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE()
>> (to prevent tearing) and declaring the field volatile.
> 
> There is, declaring the field volatile doesn't make it stand out in the
> code while reading at all; it also doesn't allow you to omit the
> volatile qualifier in places where it doesn't matter.
> 
> The whole; variables aren't volatile, accesses are, thing is still very
> much in effect.

I'm not really seriously arguing for volatile declarations; I'm pointing
out that READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE() has overloaded meaning that is
counter-productive.

For example, you point out that it doesn't allow you to omit the
volatile qualifier but yet we're adding it to underlying primitives
that may or may not be used locklessly.

Guaranteed list_empty() and list_add() are used way more than INIT_LIST_HEAD().


>> So we've come full-circle from volatile-considered-harmful.
> 
> I don't think so; the cases that document talks about are still very
> much relevant and volatile should not be used for that.

The example below is clearly wrong now.

	"Another situation where one might be tempted to use volatile is
	when the processor is busy-waiting on the value of a variable.  The right
	way to perform a busy wait is:

	    while (my_variable != what_i_want)
        	cpu_relax();

	The cpu_relax() call can lower CPU power consumption or yield to a
	hyperthreaded twin processor; it also happens to serve as a compiler
	barrier, so, once again, volatile is unnecessary.  Of course, busy-
	waiting is generally an anti-social act to begin with."


The fact that cpu_relax() is a barrier is immaterial; the load of my_variable
must now be READ_ONCE() to prevent load-tearing.

Likewise, whatever is writing to 'my_variable' must now be WRITE_ONCE().

Regards,
Peter Hurley

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