Message-ID: <87k2e72l8s.fsf@yhuang-dev.intel.com>
Date:   Tue, 20 Sep 2016 13:28:19 +0800
From:   "Huang\, Ying" <ying.huang@...el.com>
To:     Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org>
Cc:     "Huang\, Ying" <ying.huang@...el.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        <tim.c.chen@...el.com>, <dave.hansen@...el.com>,
        <andi.kleen@...el.com>, <aaron.lu@...el.com>, <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>,
        Shaohua Li <shli@...nel.org>, Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
        Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>,
        "Kirill A . Shutemov" <kirill.shutemov@...ux.intel.com>,
        Vladimir Davydov <vdavydov@...tuozzo.com>,
        Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH -v3 00/10] THP swap: Delay splitting THP during swapping out

Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> writes:

> Hi Huang,
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 10:54:35AM +0800, Huang, Ying wrote:
>> Hi, Minchan,
>> 
>> Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> writes:
>> > Hi Huang,
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 09:53:39AM +0800, Huang, Ying wrote:
>> >> Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> writes:
>> >> 
>> >> > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 04:53:49PM +0800, Huang, Ying wrote:
>> >> >> Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> writes:
>> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 02:40:00PM +0800, Huang, Ying wrote:
>> >> >> >> Minchan Kim <minchan@...nel.org> writes:
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> > Hi Huang,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 01:35:12PM -0700, Huang, Ying wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> >> >> > 1. If we solve batching swapout, then how is THP split for swapout bad?
>> >> >> > 2. Also, how is current conservatie swapin from khugepaged bad?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I think it's one of decision point for the motivation of your work
>> >> >> > and for 1, we need batching swapout feature.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I am saying again that I'm not against your goal but only concern
>> >> >> > is approach. If you don't agree, please ignore me.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> I am glad to discuss my final goal, that is, swapping out/in the full
>> >> >> THP without splitting.  Why I want to do that is copied as below,
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, it's your *final* goal but what if it couldn't be acceptable
>> >> > on second step you mentioned above, for example?
>> >> >
>> >> >         Unncessary binded implementation to rejected work.
>> >> 
>> >> So I want to discuss my final goal.  If people accept my final goal,
>> >> this is resolved.  If people don't accept, I will reconsider it.
>> >
>> > No.
>> >
>> > Please keep it in mind. There are lots of factors the project would
>> > be broken during going on by several reasons because we are human being
>> > so we can simply miss something clear and realize it later that it's
>> > not feasible. Otherwise, others can show up with better idea for the
>> > goal or fix other subsystem which can affect your goals.
>> > I don't want to say such boring theoretical stuffs any more.
>> >
>> > My point is patchset should be self-contained if you really want to go
>> > with step-by-step approach because we are likely to miss something
>> > *easily*.
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> > If you want to achieve your goal step by step, please consider if
>> >> > one of step you are thinking could be rejected but steps already
>> >> > merged should be self-contained without side-effect.
>> >> 
>> >> What is the side-effect or possible regressions of the step 1 as in this
>> >
>> > Adding code complexity for unproved feature.
>> >
>> > When I read your steps, your *most important* goal is to avoid split/
>> > collapsing anon THP page for swap out/in. As a bonus with the approach,
>> > we could increase swapout/in bandwidth, too. Do I understand correctly?
>> 
>> It's hard to say what is the *most important* goal.  But it is clear
>> that to improve swapout/in performance isn't the only goal.  The other
>> goal to avoid split/collapsing THP page for swap out/in is very
>> important too.
>
> Okay, then, couldn't you focus a goal in patchset? After solving a problem,
> then next one. What's the problem?
> One of your goal is swapout performance and it's same with Tim's work.
> That's why I wanted to make your patchset based on Tim's work. But if you
> want your patch first, please make patchset independent with your other goal
> so everyone can review easily and focus on *a* problem.
> In your patchset, THP split delaying part could be folded into in your second
> patchset which is to avoid THP split/collapsing.

I thought multiple goals for one patchset is common.  But if you want
just one goal for review, I suggest you to review the patchset for the
goal to avoid split/collapsing anon THP page for swap out/in.  And this
patchset is just the first step for that.

>> > However, swap-in/out bandwidth enhance is common requirement for both
>> > normal and THP page and with Tim's work, we could enhance swapout path.
>> >
>> > So, I think you should give us to number about how THP split is bad
>> > for the swapout bandwidth even though we applied Tim's work.
>> > If it's serious, next approach is yours that we could tweak swap code
>> > be aware of a THP to avoid splitting a THP.
>> 
>> It's not only about CPU cycles spent in splitting and collapsing THP,
>> but also how to make THP work effectively on systems with swap turned
>> on.
>> 
>> To avoid disturbing user applications etc., THP collapsing doesn't work
>> aggressively to collapse anonymous pages into THP.  This means, once the
>> THP is split, it will take quite long time (wall time, instead of CPU
>> cycles) to be collapsed to become a THP, especially on machines with
>> large memory size.  And on systems with swap turned on, THP will be
>> split during swap out/in now.  If much swapping out/in is triggered
>> during system running, it is possible that many THP is split, and have
>> no chance to be collapsed.  Even if the THP that has been split gets
>> opportunity to be collapsed again, the applications lose the opportunity
>> to take advantage of the THP for quite long time too.  And the memory
>> will be fragmented during the process, this makes it hard to allocate
>> new THP.  The end result is that THP usage is very low in this
>> situation.  One solution is to avoid to split/collapse THP during swap
>> out/in.
>
> I understand what you want. I have a few questions for the goal but
> will not ask now because I want to see more in your description to
> understand current situation well.
>
> Huang, please, don't mix your goals in a patchset and include your
> claim with number we can justify. It would make more reviewer happy.

Best Regards,
Huang, Ying

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