Message-ID: <CANndSK=YAqXcwhjk8Lz-r7Hbykc_bwB4sLsiqRZMvTZVi6zRWg@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:24:15 -0800
From:   Roderick Colenbrander <roderick@...kai.com>
To:     Benjamin Tissoires <benjamin.tissoires@...hat.com>
Cc:     Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@...il.com>,
        "linux-input@...r.kernel.org" <linux-input@...r.kernel.org>,
        David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>,
        Jiri Kosina <jikos@...nel.org>,
        Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer@...-t.net>,
        lkml <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Input Tools <input-tools@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
        Roderick Colenbrander <roderick.colenbrander@...y.com>,
        Jonathan Cameron <jic23@...nel.org>,
        Nathaniel Lewis <nlewis@...kai.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] Input: add motion-tracking ABS_* bits and docs

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Benjamin Tissoires
<benjamin.tissoires@...hat.com> wrote:
>
> On Sep 28 2016 or thereabouts, Roderick Colenbrander wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Dmitry Torokhov
> > <dmitry.torokhov@...il.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Roderick Colenbrander
> > > <roderick@...kai.com> wrote:
> > > > From: Roderick Colenbrander <roderick.colenbrander@...y.com>
> > > >
> > > > This patch introduces new axes for acceleration and angular velocity.
> > > > David Herrmann's work served as a base, but we extended the specification
> > > > with various changes inspired by real devices and challenges we see
> > > > when doing motion tracking.
> > > >
> > > > - Changed unit of acceleration to G instead of m/s^2. We felt that m/s^2
> > > >   is not the appropriate unit to return, because accelerometers are most
> > > >   often calibrated based on gravity. They return values in multiples of
> > > >   G and since we don't know the device location on earth, we should not
> > > >   blindly multiply by '9.8' for accuracy reasons. Such conversion is left
> > > >   to userspace.
> > > > - Resolution field is used for acceleration and gyro to report precision.
> > > >   The previous spec, specified to map 1 unit to e.g. 0.001 deg/s or 0.001 m/s^2.
> > > >   This is of course simpler for applications, but unit definition is a bit
> > > >   arbitrary. Previous axes definitions used the resolution field, which
> > > >   felt more consistent.
> > > > - Added section on timestamps, which are important for accurate motion
> > > >   tracking purposes. The use of MSC_TIMESTAMP was recommended in this
> > > >   situation to get access to the hardware timestamp if available.
> > > > - Changed motion axes to be defined as a right-handed coordinate system.
> > > >   Due to this change the gyro vectors are now defined as counter-clockwise.
> > > >   The overall changes makes the definitions consistent with computer graphics.
> > > >
> > > > [PATCH 4/4] Input: add motion-tracking ABS_* bits and docs
> > > > David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>
> > > > Tue Dec 17 07:48:54 PST 2013
> > > >
> > > > Motion sensors are getting quite common in mobile devices. To avoid
> > > > returning accelerometer data via ABS_X/Y/Z and irritating the Xorg
> > > > mouse-driver, this adds separate ABS_* bits for that.
> > >
> > > We have IIO for motions sensors that are not strictly human input
> > > devices; I believe there is also IIO->input bridge where generic IIO
> > > sensors could be mapped to input device if they are supposed to be
> > > used as such in given product.
> > >
> >
> > If we decide to move forward in the direction proposed by this patch,
> > the spec could be updated
> > to limit the scope a bit or to make it wider.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > This is needed if gaming devices want to report their normal data plus
> > > > accelerometer/gyro data. Usually, ABS_X/Y are already used by analog
> > > > sticks, so need separate definitions, anyway.
> > >
> > > I am not sure if this direction is sustainable. We can't keep adding
> > > more and more ABS axes every time we add another control to something
> > > that is basically a composite device. What if you add another stick?
> > > Magnetometer? Some other sensor?
> > >
> > > I think the only reasonable way it to come up with a notion of
> > > "composite" input device consisting of several event nodes and have
> > > userspace "assemble" it all together.
> > >
> >
> > In our case we are interested in the motion functionality for some devices
> > with drivers already in the kernel, which we want to extend over time with
> > improved capabilities.
> >
> > I understand your concerns about the scalability of ABS axes in general.
> > If someone were to come up with some crazy flight simulator joystick with many
> > weird axes, do you then add an ABS_X2, ABS_X3 etcetera? Similar what if
> > a controller for whatever reasons shipped with multiple gyroscopes,
> > accelerometers,
> > magnetic sensor, heartrate sensors etcetera?
> >
> > A composite device would on the other hand be more of a pain for the different
> > userland APIs ranging from libinput, SDL2, Android and other embedded
> > platforms. It
>
> That's already what we are doing for Wacom tablets (and some other
> devices) both in the kernel and in libinput. Wacom digitizers are
> exposed through 3 different device on average, one for the pen, one for
> the touch and one for the buttons on the pad. Libinput then relies on
> the notion of device group (a udev property) which can be tweaked when
> the heuristic fails (through libwacom mainly).
>
> Basically, libinput is not much of an issue, especially because we
> ignore accel, gyro, and other weird axis, and because we already know
> how to group composite devices.
>
> For the others, yes, it'll be a pain. But only if there is an actual need of
> grouping. If the sensors are the ones of the phone itself, having one or
> several input nodes doesn't hurt that much. If the sensors are coming
> from gamepads, then yes, there is a need for grouping, but hopefully the
> device path should provide some good heuristic.
>

How are you currently ignoring accel, gyro and others axes? The main
concern I have is how to express the axes and how does userspace
detect these?

One of the examples I saw is the Wii driver, which supports accel,
gyro and others. It exposes both accel and gyro data through
ABS_RX/_RY/_RZ and adds "Accelerometer" or "Motion Plus" to the name.
In my opinion, applications shouldn't rely on string parsing for this
stuff. Not sure if I agree with using axes which were originally
intended for rotational exes for acceleration instead of just
ABS_X/_Y/_Z, though for gyro they would make sense.

On the other hand Wacom sets 'INPUT_PROP_ACCELEROMETER' and reports
acceleration data through ABS_X/_Y/_Z. This feels more reasonable to
me as originally ABS_X/_Y/_Z where meant for horizontal displacements.

There are probably some other examples as well. I'm trying to figure
what direction would make sense moving forward. I'm starting to accept
the need for composite devices. Questions:
- What axes to use for accel? Should this be X/Y/Z or RX/RY/RZ, as I
showed there is no real standard.
- What axes to use for gyro? I think we would need an additional
INPUT_PROP_GYROSCOPE.

For any of these axes should there be some sort of standard on
increments per unit. Originally ABS_X apparently was in units/mm and
ABS_RX in units/radian. Though most of the time actual units are
unknown... but it is also a pain for applications to know about every
device.

> > would be quite an extensive change. How would they even do the
> > stitching? You could
> > handle this through sysfs (not my favorite way) or maybe have a notion
> > of a 'master'
> > device being the current event node and some way to enumerate 'sensor'
> > nodes or something.
>
> A simple udev property solves most of the grouping issues (based on the
> sysfs path mostly).
>
> The thing is currently, we are aware that the situation is not
> satisfying, and we are seeing the limit of the ABS axis declarations. We
> can find solutions (or workarounds) that works well enough, and adding
> ABS_MAX2 might not be the best solution long term: especially because of
> the slotted protocol inside ABS that messes things quite a bit.
>
> If we were to expand to ABS_MAX2, in order to avoid conflicts with the
> slotted protocol, we would need to reserve quite a few axis after
> ABS_MAX for this purpose. But we can't say how many will be required.
>
> Cheers,
> Benjamin
>

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