linux-kernel - Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC v4 PATCH 00/13] HARDENED

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Message-ID: <20161110233835.GA23164@kroah.com>
Date:   Fri, 11 Nov 2016 00:38:35 +0100
From:   Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
To:     Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>
Cc:     Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        "kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com" 
        <kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com>,
        Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>,
        Elena Reshetova <elena.reshetova@...el.com>,
        Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
        "H. Peter Anvin" <h.peter.anvin@...el.com>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC v4 PATCH 00/13] HARDENED_ATOMIC

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 03:15:44PM -0800, Kees Cook wrote:
> (PeterZ went missing from your reply? I've added him back to the thread...)

argh, not intentional at all, thanks for that...

> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:13:10PM +0100, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 08:48:38PM +0000, Will Deacon wrote:
> >> > > That said, I still don't much like this.
> >> > >
> >> > > I would much rather you make kref useful and use that. It still means
> >> > > you get to audit all refcounts in the kernel, but hey, you had to do
> >> > > that anyway.
> >> >
> >> > What needs to happen to kref to make it useful? Like many others, I've
> >> > been guilty of using atomic_t for refcounts in the past.
> >>
> >> As it stands kref is a pointless wrapper. If it were to provide
> >> something actually useful, like wrap protection, then it might actually
> >> make sense to use it.
> >
> > It provides the correct cleanup ability for a reference count and the
> > object it is in, so it's not all that pointless :)
> >
> > But I'm always willing to change it to make it work better for people,
> > if kref did the wrapping protection (i.e. used a non-wrapping atomic
> > type), then you would have that.  I thought that was what this patchset
> > provided...
> >
> > And yes, this is a horridly large patchset.  I've looked at these
> > changes, and in almost all of them, people are using atomic_t as merely
> > a "counter" for something (sequences, rx/tx stats, etc), to get away
> > without having to lock it with an external lock.
> >
> > So, does it make more sense to just provide a "pointless" api for this
> > type of "counter" pattern:
> >         counter_inc()
> >         counter_dec()
> >         counter_read()
> >         counter_set()
> >         counter_add()
> >         counter_subtract()
> > Those would use the wrapping atomic type, as they can wrap all they want
> > and no one really is in trouble.  Once those changes are done, just make
> > atomic_t not wrap and all should be fine, no other code should need to
> > be changed.
> >
> > We can bikeshed on the function names for a while, to let everyone feel
> > they contributed (counter, kcount, ksequence, sequence_t, cnt_t, etc.)...
> 
> Bikeshed: "counter" doesn't tell me anything about its behavior at max value.

True :)

> > And yes, out-of-tree code will work differently, but really, the worse
> > that could happen is their "sequence number" stops wrapping :)
> >
> > Would that be a better way to implement this?
> 
> A thought I had if the opt-out approach is totally unacceptable would
> be to make it a CONFIG option that can toggle the risk as desired. It
> would require splitting into three cases:
> 
> reference counters (say, "refcount" implemented with new atomic_nowrap_t)

These should almost always be just using a kref.  Yes, there are some
vfs reference counters that can't use a kref, but those are rare.  And
make kref use atomic_nowrap_t.

This should be a very rare type, hopefully.

> statistic counters (say, "statcount" implemented with new atomic_wrap_t)

Lots of these are also "sequences", that drivers rely on.  Hopefully
they can wrap as that's what happens today.  So that might not be the
best name, but naming is hard...

> everything else (named "atomic_t", implemented as either
> atomic_nowrap_t or atomic_wrap_t, depending on CONFIG)

Sounds reasonable, will that still give you the protection that you want
here?

thanks,

greg k-h