Message-ID: <20161124095622.GA14390@kroah.com>
Date:   Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:56:22 +0100
From:   Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
To:     Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>
Cc:     Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>, Al Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>,
        Adam Borowski <kilobyte@...band.pl>,
        Michal Marek <mmarek@...e.com>,
        Philip Muller <philm@...jaro.org>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
        "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
        linux-arch <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-kbuild <linux-kbuild@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] x86/kbuild: enable modversions for symbols exported from
 asm

On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 06:53:22PM +1100, Nicholas Piggin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:36:39 +0100
> Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 06:20:26PM +1100, Nicholas Piggin wrote:
> > > But still, modversions is pretty complicated for what it gives us. It sends
> > > preprocessed C into a C parser that makes CRCs using type definitions of
> > > exported symbols, then turns those CRCs into a linker script which which is
> > > used to link the .o file with. What we get in return is a quite limited and
> > > symbol "versioning" system.
> > > 
> > > What if we ripped all that out and just attached an explicit version to
> > > each export, and incompatible changes require an increment?  
> > 
> > How would that work for structures?  Would that be required for every
> > EXPORT_SYMBOL* somehow?
> 
> Yeah just have EXPORT_SYMBOL take another parameter which attaches a version
> number and use that as the value for the __crc_ symbol versions rather than
> a calculated CRC.
> 
> Yes it would require some level of care from developers and may be a small
> annoyance when changing exports. But making people think a tiny bit more
> before chnaging exported ABI shouldn't be the end of the world.

That wouldn't work at all for structures that change, as we never
explicitly "mark" them for export anywhere.  You need a tool that looks
at either the source code (what we have today), or looks at the
object/debugging code (like the link I pointed at.)

> > > Google tells me
> > > Linus is not a neutral bystander on the topic of symbol versioning, so I'm
> > > bracing for a robust response :) (actually I don't much care either way, I'm
> > > happy to put a couple of bandaids on it and keep it going)  
> > 
> > There are tools that people are working on to make it more obvious where
> > API breaks happen by looking at the .o debug data instead of our crazy
> > current system (which is really better than nothing), perhaps we should
> > start using them instead?
> > 
> > See here for more details about this:
> > 	https://kernel-recipes.org/en/2016/talks/would-an-abi-changes-visualization-tool-be-useful-to-linux-kernel-maintenance/
> 
> Hmm. I guess it's basically similar to modversions, so has downsides of not
> detecting a semantic change unless it changes the type. But still, if we could
> replace our custom code with a tool like this for modversions functionality,
> that alone would be a massive improvement. But requiring debug info might be
> a bit of a show stopper. I also don't know if that would handle asm functions.

I think we can live without asm functions changing their arguments as
that is usually very rare.  And maybe debugging info being a requirement
for those that want modversions (i.e. the distros), is ok as they
already generate that as part of their build.

But more importantly, that's a much longer-term solution, fixing what we
have today to at least start working again is much more important before
we start bikeshedding the whole mess :)

thanks,

greg k-h

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