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Date:   Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:49:26 +0100
From:   Thierry Reding <>
To:     Maxime Ripard <>
Cc:     Tobias Jakobi <>,
        Mark Rutland <>,,,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <>,
        linux-kernel <>,
        ML dri-devel <>,,,
        Rob Herring <>,
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/8] ARM: sun8i: a33: Mali improvements

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 04:43:41PM +0100, Maxime Ripard wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 01:45:44PM +0100, Tobias Jakobi wrote:
> > Hello Maxime,
> > 
> > Maxime Ripard wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 01:43:06PM +0100, Tobias Jakobi wrote:
> > >> I was wondering about the following. Wasn't there some strict
> > >> requirement about code going upstream, which also included that there
> > >> was a full open-source driver stack for it?
> > >>
> > >> I don't see how this is the case for Mali, neither in the kernel, nor in
> > >> userspace. I'm aware that the Mali kernel driver is open-source. But it
> > >> is not upstream, maintained out of tree, and won't land upstream in its
> > >> current form (no resemblence to a DRM driver at all). And let's not talk
> > >> about the userspace part.
> > >>
> > >> So, why should this be here?
> > > 
> > > The device tree is a representation of the hardware itself. The state
> > > of the driver support doesn't change the hardware you're running on,
> > > just like your BIOS/UEFI on x86 won't change the device it reports to
> > > Linux based on whether it has a driver for it.
> >
> > Like Emil already said, the new bindings and the DT entries are solely
> > introduced to support a proprietary out-of-tree module.
> No. This new binding and the DT entries are solely introduced to
> describe a device found in a number of SoCs, just like any other DT
> binding we have.
> > The current workflow when introducing new DT entries is the following:
> > - upstream a driver that uses the entries
> > - THEN add the new entries
> And that's never been the preferred workflow, for *any* patches.

Actually it has. How else are you going to test that your driver really
works? You've got to have both pieces before you can verify that they're
both adequate. So the typical workflow is to:

	1) define the bindings
	2) write a driver that implements the bindings
	3) add entries to device tree files

Usually it doesn't matter in which order you do the above because they
are all part of the same patch series. But that's not what you're doing
here. The more general problem here is that you're providing device tree
content (and therefore ABI) that's based on a binding which has no
upstream users. So you don't actually have a way of validating that what
you merge is going to be an adequate description.

You're probably going to respond: "but DT describes hardware, so it must
be known already, there won't be a need for changes". Unfortunately that
is only partially true. We've had a number of occasions where it later
turned out that a binding was in fact not an adequate description, and
then we've had to jump through hoops in order to preserve backwards
compatibility. That's already annoying enough if you've got in-tree
users, but it's going to be even more painful if you start out with an
out-of-tree user.

All of that said, you've got an Acked-by from Rob and that's about as
good as it's going to get. So I'm not going to NAK this. But I will
caution against this, because I don't think you're doing yourself any
favours with this.

So perhaps the question that we should ask is this: what do you gain by
merging this series? The fact remains that you don't have an upstream
driver that implements this binding, so ultimately you're going to be
carrying patches in some development tree anyway. Why not simply stash
these patches into the same tree? That should be about the same amount
of work for you and your users, but it has the advantage of not locking
you into something that you may regret.


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