Message-ID: <20170227125636.GB26504@dhcp22.suse.cz>
Date:   Mon, 27 Feb 2017 13:56:37 +0100
From:   Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>
To:     Vitaly Kuznetsov <vkuznets@...hat.com>
Cc:     linux-mm@...ck.org, Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        "K. Y. Srinivasan" <kys@...rosoft.com>,
        David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>,
        Daniel Kiper <daniel.kiper@...cle.com>,
        linux-api@...r.kernel.org, LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-s390@...r.kernel.org, xen-devel@...ts.xenproject.org,
        linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] mm, hotplug: get rid of auto_online_blocks

On Mon 27-02-17 11:49:43, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote:
> Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org> writes:
> 
> > On Mon 27-02-17 11:02:09, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote:
> > [...]
> >> I don't have anything new to add to the discussion happened last week
> >> but I'd like to summarize my arguments against this change:
> >> 
> >> 1) This patch doesn't solve any issue. Configuration option is not an
> >> issue by itself, it is an option for distros to decide what they want to
> >> ship: udev rule with known issues (legacy mode) or enable the new
> >> option. Distro makers and users building their kernels should be able to
> >> answer this simple question "do you want to automatically online all
> >> newly added memory or not".
> >
> > OK, so could you be more specific? Distributions have no clue about
> > which HW their kernel runs on so how can they possibly make a sensible
> > decision here?
> 
> They at least have an idea if they ship udev rule or not. I can also
> imagine different choices for non-x86 architectures but I don't know
> enough about them to have an opinion.

I really do not follow. If they know whether they ship the udev rule
then why do they need a kernel help at all? Anyway this global policy
actually breaks some usecases. Say you would have a default set to
online. What should user do if _some_ nodes should be online_movable?
Or, say that HyperV or other hotplug based ballooning implementation
really want to online the movable memory in order to have a realiable
hotremove. Now you have a global policy which goes against it.

> >> There are distros already which ship kernels
> >> with CONFIG_MEMORY_HOTPLUG_DEFAULT_ONLINE enabled (Fedora 24 and 25 as
> >> far as I remember, maybe someone else).
> >> 
> >> 2) This patch creates an imbalance between Xen/Hyper-V on one side and
> >> KVM/Vmware on another. KVM/Vmware use pure ACPI memory hotplug and this
> >> memory won't get onlined. I don't understand how this problem is
> >> supposed to be solved by distros. They'll *have to* continue shipping
> >> a udev rule which has and always will have issues.
> >
> > They have notifications for udev to online that memory and AFAICU
> > neither KVM nor VMware are using memory hotplut for ballooning - unlike
> > HyperV and Xen.
> >
> 
> No, Hyper-V doesn't use memory hotplug for ballooning purposes. It is
> just a memory hotplug. The fact that the code is located in hv_balloon
> is just a coincidence.

OK, I might be wrong here but 1cac8cd4d146 ("Drivers: hv: balloon:
Implement hot-add functionality") suggests otherwise.

> The difference with real hardware is how the operation is performed:
> with real hardware you need to take a DIMM, go to your server room, open
> the box, insert DIMM, go back to your seat. Asking to do some manual
> action to actually enable memory is kinda OK. The beauty of hypervisors
> is that everything happens automatically (e.g. when the VM is running
> out of memory).

I do not see your point. Either you have some (semi)automatic way to
balance memory in guest based on the memory pressure (let's call it
ballooning) or this is an administration operation (say you buy more
DIMs or pay more to your virtualization provider) and then it is up to
the guest owner to tell what to do about that memory. In other words you
really do not want to wait in the first case as you are under memory
pressure which is _actively_ managed or this is much more relaxed
environment.
 
> >> 3) Kernel command line is not a viable choice, it is rather a debug
> >> method.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> 
> Because we usually have just a few things there (root=, console=) and
> the rest is used when something goes wrong or for 'special' cases, not
> for the majority of users.

auto online or even memory hotplug seems something that requires
a special HW/configuration already so I fail to see your point. It is
normal to put kernel parameters to override the default. And AFAIU
default offline is a sensible default for the standard memory hotplug.

[...]

> >> 2) Adding new memory can (in some extreme cases) still fail as we need
> >> some *other* memory before we're able to online the newly added
> >> block. This is an issue to be solved and it is doable (IMO) with some
> >> pre-allocation.
> >
> > you cannot preallocate for all the possible memory that can be added.
> 
> For all, no, but for 1 next block - yes, and then I'll preallocate for
> the next one.

You are still thinking in the scope of your particular use case and I
believe the whole thing is shaped around that very same thing and that
is why it should have been rejected in the first place. Especially when
that use case can be handled without user visible configuration knob.

-- 
Michal Hocko
SUSE Labs

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