Message-ID: <20170321110138.GA11054@e110439-lin>
Date:   Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:01:38 +0000
From:   Patrick Bellasi <patrick.bellasi@....com>
To:     "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@...nel.org>
Cc:     Joel Fernandes <joelaf@...gle.com>,
        "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linux PM <linux-pm@...r.kernel.org>,
        Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
        "Rafael J . Wysocki" <rafael.j.wysocki@...el.com>,
        Paul Turner <pjt@...gle.com>, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@....net>,
        Vincent Guittot <vincent.guittot@...aro.org>,
        John Stultz <john.stultz@...aro.org>,
        Todd Kjos <tkjos@...roid.com>,
        Tim Murray <timmurray@...gle.com>,
        Andres Oportus <andresoportus@...gle.com>,
        Juri Lelli <juri.lelli@....com>,
        Morten Rasmussen <morten.rasmussen@....com>,
        Dietmar Eggemann <dietmar.eggemann@....com>
Subject: Re: [RFC v3 0/5] Add capacity capping support to the CPU controller

On 20-Mar 23:51, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Joel Fernandes <joelaf@...gle.com> wrote:
> > Hi Rafael,
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Rafael J. Wysocki <rafael@...nel.org> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Patrick Bellasi
> >>>> Do you have any practical examples of that, like for example what exactly
> >>>> Android is going to use this for?
> >>>
> >>> In general, every "informed run-time" usually know quite a lot about
> >>> tasks requirements and how they impact the user experience.
> >>>
> >>> In Android for example tasks are classified depending on their _current_
> >>> role. We can distinguish for example between:
> >>>
> >>> - TOP_APP:    which are tasks currently affecting the UI, i.e. part of
> >>>               the app currently in foreground
> >>> - BACKGROUND: which are tasks not directly impacting the user
> >>>               experience
> >>>
> >>> Given these information it could make sense to adopt different
> >>> service/optimization policy for different tasks.
> >>> For example, we can be interested in
> >>> giving maximum responsiveness to TOP_APP tasks while we still want to
> >>> be able to save as much energy as possible for the BACKGROUND tasks.
> >>>
> >>> That's where the proposal in this series (partially) comes on hand.
> >>
> >> A question: Does "responsiveness" translate directly to "capacity" somehow?
> >>
> >> Moreover, how exactly is "responsiveness" defined?
> >
> > Responsiveness is basically how quickly the UI is responding to user
> > interaction after doing its computation, application-logic and
> > rendering. Android apps have 2 important threads, the main thread (or
> > UI thread) which does all the work and computation for the app, and a
> > Render thread which does the rendering and submission of frames to
> > display pipeline for further composition and display.
> >
> > We wish to bias towards performance than energy for this work since
> > this front facing to the user and we don't care about much about
> > energy for these tasks at this point, what's most critical is
> > completion as quickly as possible so the user experience doesn't
> > suffer from a performance issue that is noticeable.
> >
> > One metric to define this is "Jank" where we drop frames and aren't
> > able to render on time. One of the reasons this can happen because the
> > main thread (UI thread) took longer than expected for some
> > computation. Whatever the interface - we'd just like to bias the
> > scheduling and frequency guidance to be more concerned with
> > performance and less with energy. And use this information for both
> > frequency selection and task placement. 'What we need' is also app
> > dependent since every app has its own main thread and is free to
> > compute whatever it needs. So Android can't estimate this - but we do
> > know that this app is user facing so in broad terms the interface is
> > used to say please don't sacrifice performance for these top-apps -
> > without accurately defining what these performance needs really are
> > because we don't know it.
> > For YouTube app for example, the complexity of the video decoding and
> > the frame rate are very variable depending on the encoding scheme and
> > the video being played. The flushing of the frames through the display
> > pipeline is also variable (frame rate depends on the video being
> > decoded), so this work is variable and we can't say for sure in
> > definitive terms how much capacity we need.
> >
> > What we can do is with Patrick's work, we can take the worst case
> > based on measurements and specify say we need atleast this much
> > capacity regardless of what load-tracking thinks we need and then we
> > can scale frequency accordingly. This is the usecase for the minimum
> > capacity in his clamping patch. This is still not perfect in terms of
> > defining something accurately because - we don't even know how much we
> > need, but atleast in broad terms we have some way of telling the
> > governor to maintain atleast X capacity.
> 
> First off, it all seems to depend a good deal on what your
> expectations regarding the in-kernel performance scaling are.
> 
> You seem to be expecting it to decide whether or not to sacrifice some
> performance for energy savings, but it can't do that really, simply
> because it has no guidance on that.  It doesn't know how much
> performance (or capacity) it can trade for a given amount of energy,
> for example.

That's true, right now. But in ARM we are working since a cpuple of
years to refine the concept of an energy model which improves the
scheduler knowledge about the energy-vs-performance trade-off.

> What it can do and what I expect it to be doing is to avoid
> maintaining excess capacity (maintaining capacity is expensive in
> general and a clear waste if the capacity is not actually used).
> 
> For instance, if you take the schedutil governor, it doesn't do
> anything really fancy.  It just attempts to set a frequency sufficient
> to run the given workload without slowing it down artificially, but
> not much higher than that, and that's not based on any arcane
> energy-vs-performance considerations.  It's based on an (arguably
> vague) idea about how fast should be sufficient.
> 
> So if you want to say "please don't sacrifice performance for these
> top-apps" to it, chances are it will not understand what you are
> asking it for. :-)

Actually, this series are the foundation bits of a more complete
solution, already in use on Pixel phones.

While this proposal focuses just on "OPP biasing", some additional
bits (not yet posted to keep things simple) exploit the Energy Model
information to provide support for "task placement biasing".

Those bits address also the concept of:

   how much energy I want to sacrifice to get a certain speedup?

> It only may take the minimum capacity limit for a task as a correction
> to its idea about how fast is sufficient in this particular case (and
> energy doesn't even enter the picture at this point).  Now, of course,
> its idea about what should be sufficient may be entirely incorrect for
> some reason, but then the question really is: why?  And whether or not
> it can be fixed without supplying corrections from user space in a
> very direct way.

- Why the estimation is incorrect?

Because, looking at CFS tasks for example, PELT is a "running
estimator". Its view about how much capacity a task needs changes
continuously over time. In short it is missing an aggregation and
consolidation mechanism which allows to exploit better information on
task's past activations.
We have a proposal to possibly fix that and we will post if soonish.

However, still it can be that for a certain task you want to add some
"safety margin" to accommodate for possible workload variations.
That's required also if you have a perfect knowledge about task
requirements for a task, which has been built entirely in kernel
space, based on past activations.
if your task is such important, you don't care to give it "just
enough".  You need to know how much more to give him, and this
information can come only from user-space where someone with more
information can use a properly defined API to feed them to the
scheduler using a per-task interface.

- Can it be fixed without corrections from user-space?

Not completely, more details hereafter.

> What you are saying generally indicates that you see under-provisioned
> tasks and that's rather nor because the kernel tries to sacrifice
> performance for energy.  Maybe the CPU utilization is under-estimated
> by schedutil or the scheduler doesn't give enough time to these
> particular tasks for some reason.  In any case, having a way to set a
> limit from user space may allow you to work around these issues quite
> bluntly and is not a solution.  And even if the underlying problems
> are solved, the user space interface will stay there and will have to
> be maintained going forward.

I don't agree on that point, mainly because I don't see that as a
workaround. In your view you it seems that everything can be solved
entirely in kernel space. In my view instead what we are after is a
properly defined interface where kernel-space and user-space can
potentially close a control loop where:
a) user-space, which has much more a-priori information about tasks
   requirements can feed some constraints to kernel-space.
b) kernel-space, which has optimized end efficient mechanisms, enforce
   these constraints on a per task basis.

After all this is not a new concept on OS design, we already have
different interfaces which allows to tune scheduler behaviors on a
per-task bias. What we are missing right now is a similar _per-task
interface_ to bias OPP selection and a slightly improved/alternative
way to bias task placement _without_ doing scheduling decisions in
user-space.

Here is a graphical representation of these concepts:

      +-------------+    +-------------+  +-------------+
      | App1 Tasks  ++   | App2 Tasks  ++ | App3 Tasks  ++
      |             ||   |             || |             ||
      +--------------|   +--------------| +--------------|
       +-------------+    +-------------+  +-------------+
                |               |              |
  +----------------------------------------------------------+
  |                                                          |
  |      +--------------------------------------------+      |
  |      |  +-------------------------------------+   |      |
  |      |  |      Run-Time Optimized Services    |   |      |
  |      |  |        (e.g. execution model)       |   |      |
  |      |  +-------------------------------------+   |      |
  |      |                                            |      |
  |      |     Informed Run-Time Resource Manager     |      |
  |      |   (Android, ChromeOS, Kubernets, etc...)   |      |
  |      +------------------------------------------^-+      |
  |        |                                        |        |
  |        |Constraints                             |        |
  |        |(OPP and Task Placement biasing)        |        |
  |        |                                        |        |
  |        |                             Monitoring |        |
  |      +-v------------------------------------------+      |
  |      |               Linux Kernel                 |      |
  |      |         (Scheduler, schedutil, ...)        |      |
  |      +--------------------------------------------+      |
  |                                                          |
  | Closed control and optimization loop                     |
  +----------------------------------------------------------+

What is important to notice is that there is a middleware, in between
the kernel and the applications. This is a special kind of user-space
where it is still safe for the kernel to delegate some "decisions".

> Also when you set a minimum frequency limit from user space, you may
> easily over-provision the task and that would defeat the purpose of
> what the kernel tries to achieve.

No, if an "informed user-space" wants to over-provision a task it's
because it has already decided that it makes sense to limit the kernel
energy optimization for that specific class of tasks.
It is not necessarily kernel business to know why, it is just required
to do its best within the provided constraints.

> > For the clamping of maximum capacity, there are usecases like
> > background tasks like Patrick said, but also usecases where we don't
> > want to run at max frequency even though load-tracking thinks that we
> > need to. For example, there are case where for foreground camera
> > tasks, where we want to provide sustainable performance without
> > entering thermal throttling, so the capping will help there.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> To me, that case is more compelling than the previous one, but again
> I'm not sure if the ability to set a specific capacity limit may fit
> the bill entirely.  You need to know what limit to set in the first
> place (and that may depend on multiple factors in principle) and then
> you may need to adjust it over time and so on.

Exactly and again, the informed run-time knows which limits to set,
on which tasks and when change/update/tune them.

> >>> What we propose is a "standard" interface to collect sensible
> >>> information from "informed run-times" which can be used to:
> >>>
> >>> a) classify tasks according to the main optimization goals:
> >>>    performance boosting vs energy saving
> >>>
> >>> b) support a more dynamic tuning of kernel side behaviors, mainly
> >>>    OPPs selection and tasks placement
> >>>
> >>> Regarding this last point, this series specifically represents a
> >>> proposal for the integration with schedutil. The main usages we are
> >>> looking for in Android are:
> >>>
> >>> a) Boosting the OPP selected for certain critical tasks, with the goal
> >>>    to speed-up their completion regardless of (potential) energy impacts.
> >>>    A kind-of "race-to-idle" policy for certain tasks.
> >>
> >> It looks like this could be addressed by adding a "this task should
> >> race to idle" flag too.
> >
> > But he said 'kind-of' race-to-idle. Racing to idle all the time for
> > ex. at max frequency will be wasteful of energy so although we don't
> > care about energy much for top-apps, we do care a bit.
> 
> You actually don't know whether or not it will be wasteful and there
> may even be differences from workload to workload on the same system
> in that respect.

The workload dependencies are solved by the "informed run-time",
that's why what we are proposing is a per-task interface.
Moreover, notice that most of the optimization can still be targeted
to services provided by the "informed run-time". Thus the dependencies
on the actual applications are kind-of limited and still they can be
factored in by properly defined interfaces exposed by the "informed
run-time".

> >>> b) Capping the OPP selection for certain non critical tasks, which is
> >>>    a major concerns especially for RT tasks in mobile context, but
> >>>    it also apply to FAIR tasks representing background activities.
> >>
> >> Well, is the information on how much CPU capacity assign to those
> >> tasks really there in user space?  What's the source of it if so?
> >
> > I believe this is just a matter of tuning and modeling for what is
> > needed. For ex. to prevent thermal throttling as I mentioned and also
> > to ensure background activities aren't running at highest frequency
> > and consuming excessive energy (since racing to idle at higher
> > frequency is more expensive energy than running slower to idle since
> > we run at higher voltages at higher frequency and the slow of the
> > perf/W curve is steeper - p = c * V^2 * F. So the V component being
> > higher just drains more power quadratic-ally which is of no use to
> > background tasks - infact in some tests, we're just as happy with
> > setting them at much lower frequencies than what load-tracking thinks
> > is needed.
> 
> As I said, I actually can see a need to go lower than what performance
> scaling thinks, because the way it tries to estimate the sufficient
> capacity is by checking how much utilization is there for the
> currently provided capacity and adjusting if necessary.  OTOH, there
> are applications aggressive enough to be able to utilize *any*
> capacity provided to them.

Here you are not considering the control role exercised by the
middleware layer. Apps cannot really do whatever they want, they get
only what the "informed run-time" considers it sufficient for them.

IOW, they live in a "managed user-space".

> >>>> I gather that there is some experience with the current EAS implementation
> >>>> there, so I wonder how this work is related to that.
> >>>
> >>> You right. We started developing a task boosting strategy a couple of
> >>> years ago. The first implementation we did is what is currently in use
> >>> by the EAS version in used on Pixel smartphones.
> >>>
> >>> Since the beginning our attitude has always been "mainline first".
> >>> However, we found it extremely valuable to proof both interface's
> >>> design and feature's benefits on real devices. That's why we keep
> >>> backporting these bits on different Android kernels.
> >>>
> >>> Google, which primary representatives are in CC, is also quite focused
> >>> on using mainline solutions for their current and future solutions.
> >>> That's why, after the release of the Pixel devices end of last year,
> >>> we refreshed and posted the proposal on LKML [1] and collected a first
> >>> run of valuable feedbacks at LCP [2].
> >>
> >> Thanks for the info, but my question was more about how it was related
> >> from the technical angle.  IOW, there surely is some experience
> >> related to how user space can deal with energy problems and I would
> >> expect that experience to be an important factor in designing a kernel
> >> interface for that user space, so I wonder if any particular needs of
> >> the Android user space are addressed here.
> >>
> >> I'm not intimately familiar with Android, so I guess I would like to
> >> be educated somewhat on that. :-)
> >
> > Hope this sheds some light into the Android side of things a bit.
> 
> Yes, it does, thanks!

Interesting discussion, thanks! ;-)

> Best regards,
> Rafael

-- 
#include <best/regards.h>

Patrick Bellasi

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