Message-ID: <CAL_JsqJriAJWi0dxdtPBVVFv8GxFG1=U1aFvHAa5m-V2hg5hyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Wed, 16 Aug 2017 11:16:30 -0500
From:   Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org>
To:     Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com>
Cc:     "devicetree@...r.kernel.org" <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
        Tero Kristo <t-kristo@...com>, Nishanth Menon <nm@...com>,
        Tomi Valkeinen <tomi.valkeinen@...com>,
        Sekhar Nori <nsekhar@...com>,
        Frank Rowand <frowand.list@...il.com>,
        Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@...ionext.com>,
        Michal Marek <mmarek@...e.com>,
        Pantelis Antoniou <pantelis.antoniou@...sulko.com>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linux Kbuild mailing list <linux-kbuild@...r.kernel.org>,
        Stephen Boyd <stephen.boyd@...aro.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] devicetree: Enable generation of __symbols__ in all dtb files

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 10:43:16AM -0500, Rob Herring wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 05:36:11PM -0500, Rob Herring wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com> wrote:
>> >> > With support for stacked overlays being part of libfdt it is now
>> >> > possible and likely that overlays which require __symbols__ will be
>> >> > applied to the dtb files generated by the kernel.  This is done by
>> >> > passing -@ to dtc.  This does increase the filesize (and resident memory
>> >> > usage) based on the number of __symbol__ entries added to match the
>> >> > contents of the dts.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cc: Rob Herring <robh+dt@...nel.org>
>> >> > Cc: Frank Rowand <frowand.list@...il.com>
>> >> > Cc: Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@...ionext.com>
>> >> > Cc: Michal Marek <mmarek@...e.com>
>> >> > Cc: Pantelis Antoniou <pantelis.antoniou@...sulko.com>
>> >> > Cc: devicetree@...r.kernel.org
>> >> > Cc: linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
>> >> > CC: linux-kbuild@...r.kernel.org
>> >> > Signed-off-by: Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com>
>> >> > ---
>> >> > In order for a dtb file to be useful with all types of overlays, it
>> >> > needs to be generated with the -@ flag passed to dtc so that __symbols__
>> >> > are generated.  This however is not free, and increases the resulting
>> >> > dtb file by up to approximately 50% today.  In the current worst case
>> >> > this is moving from 88KiB to 133KiB.  In talking with Frank about this,
>> >>
>> >> Plus some amount for the unflattened tree in memory, too.
>> >>
>> >> > he outlined 3 possible ways (with the 4th option of something else
>> >> > entirely).
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. Make passing -@ to dtc be dependent upon some CONFIG symbol.
>> >> > 2. In the kernel, if the kernel does not have overlay support, discard
>> >> > the __symbols__ information that we've been passed.
>> >> > 3. Have the bootloader pass in, or not, __symbols__ information.
>> >> >
>> >> > This patch is an attempt to implement something between the 3rd option
>> >> > and a different, 4th option.  Frank was thinking that we might introduce
>> >> > a new symbol to control generation of __symbol__ information for option
>> >> > 1.  I think this gets the usage backwards and will lead to confusion
>> >> > among users and developers.
>> >> >
>> >> > My proposal is that we do not want __symbols__ existence to be dependent
>> >> > on some part of the kernel configuration for a number of reasons.
>> >> > First, this is out of step with the rest of how dtbs are created today
>> >> > and more importantly, thought about.  Today, all dtb content is
>> >> > independent of CONFIG options.  If you build a dtb from a given kernel
>> >> > tree, everyone will agree on the result.  This is part of the "contract"
>> >> > on passing old kernels and new dtb files even.
>> >>
>> >> Agree completely. I don't even like that building dtbs depends on the ARCH.
>> >>
>> >> However, option 2 may still be useful. There's no point exposing what
>> >> can't be used. Furthermore, exposing __symbols__ in /proc/device-tree
>> >> at all may be a bad idea. We should consider if it should always be
>> >> hidden. That would also allow storing the __symbols__ data however we
>> >> want internally (i.e. with less memory usage). The complication is
>> >> always kexec which I haven't thought about too much here.
>> >
>> > A further patch to the kernel at run-time, OK.  If you give me some
>> > crumbs I'll see if I can figure out the next steps.
>> >
>> >> Also, perhaps we need finer grain control of __symbols__ generation.
>> >
>> > Here I have to disagree.
>> >
>> >> We really don't want userspace to be able to modify anything in the DT
>> >> at any point in time. That's a big can of worms and we don't want to
>> >> start there. The problem is labels are widely used just for
>> >> convenience and weren't part of the ABI. With overlays that changes,
>> >> so we either need to restrict labels usage or define another way. It
>> >> could be as simple as defining some prefix for label names for labels
>> >> to export.
>> >
>> > I think there needs to be a difference noted between "here is what
>> > policy the kernel is going to enforce about run time changes" and "here
>> > is what the user is going to assemble a system to look like".  Again,
>> > stemming from the part where the Linux kernel is where dts files reside
>> > and are generated from normally.  If we have it in __symbols__, someone
>> > can make use of it in hardware design (again, think of the SoM + carrier
>> > + custom) bit, I've seen so many real life products now that would be
>> > simplified in this manner).
>>
>> I agree the usecase is an important one and one we should target, but
>> I think there are other issues to solve first before we get to the
>> trivial change needing to enable __symbols__. Do we have any dts files
>> actually structured for the SoM + carrier use case? I guess it's done
>> with includes ATM if we do. The run-time restrictions aren't just
>> kernel policy. The SoM itself is going to have restrictions defined by
>> its pinout. I think those need to be described in DT via a connector
>> binding. I worry about leaving things wide open and having overlays
>> just be a DT configuration tool with every platform structuring things
>> however they want. From what I've looked at on RPi, I'm very concerned
>> about having things like CMA overlays to set the CMA size. (On the
>> flip side as a user, it was very nice to just apply the RPi 1-wire
>> gpio overlay and things just worked.)
>
> I believe the various SoM and EVM and hobbyist cases are all either out
> of tree, or glued together (see imx6sx-udoo-neo-* in-tree, RPi or
> Hummingboard or TI DRA7 EVM + LCDs) as various groups decided it
> wouldn't be accepted to push in N "complete" DTS files for each valid
> combination).  Moving forward with an in-kernel policy on how it should
> be done, structure-wise would help with consistency and defining what's
> really acceptable.

IMO, that starts with a connector binding. Stephen Boyd has been
working towards that[1]. I guess "gpio nexus" is so obscure that all
the masses clamoring for overlays and modular board support haven't
noticed.

Rob

[1] https://www.spinics.net/lists/arm-kernel/msg600125.html

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