Message-ID: <623597181.10447378.1504803625592.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com>
Date:   Thu, 7 Sep 2017 13:00:25 -0400 (EDT)
From:   Jerome Glisse <jglisse@...hat.com>
To:     Bob Liu <liubo95@...wei.com>
Cc:     Ross Zwisler <ross.zwisler@...ux.intel.com>,
        akpm@...ux-foundation.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-mm@...ck.org, John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        David Nellans <dnellans@...dia.com>,
        Balbir Singh <bsingharora@...il.com>,
        majiuyue <majiuyue@...wei.com>,
        "xieyisheng (A)" <xieyisheng1@...wei.com>
Subject: Re: [HMM-v25 19/19] mm/hmm: add new helper to hotplug CDM memory
 region v3

> On 2017/9/6 10:12, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:25:36AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
> >> On 2017/9/6 2:54, Ross Zwisler wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 10:38:27PM -0400, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 09:13:24AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
> >>>>> On 2017/9/4 23:51, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 11:09:14AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 2017/8/17 8:05, Jérôme Glisse wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Unlike unaddressable memory, coherent device memory has a real
> >>>>>>>> resource associated with it on the system (as CPU can address
> >>>>>>>> it). Add a new helper to hotplug such memory within the HMM
> >>>>>>>> framework.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Got an new question, coherent device( e.g CCIX) memory are likely
> >>>>>>> reported to OS
> >>>>>>> through ACPI and recognized as NUMA memory node.
> >>>>>>> Then how can their memory be captured and managed by HMM framework?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Only platform that has such memory today is powerpc and it is not
> >>>>>> reported
> >>>>>> as regular memory by the firmware hence why they need this helper.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think anyone has defined anything yet for x86 and acpi. As
> >>>>>> this is
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not yet, but now the ACPI spec has Heterogeneous Memory Attribute
> >>>>> Table (HMAT) table defined in ACPI 6.2.
> >>>>> The HMAT can cover CPU-addressable memory types(though not non-cache
> >>>>> coherent on-device memory).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ross from Intel already done some work on this, see:
> >>>>> https://lwn.net/Articles/724562/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> arm64 supports APCI also, there is likely more this kind of device when
> >>>>> CCIX
> >>>>> is out (should be very soon if on schedule).
> >>>>
> >>>> HMAT is not for the same thing, AFAIK HMAT is for deep "hierarchy"
> >>>> memory ie
> >>>> when you have several kind of memory each with different
> >>>> characteristics:
> >>>>   - HBM very fast (latency) and high bandwidth, non persistent, somewhat
> >>>>     small (ie few giga bytes)
> >>>>   - Persistent memory, slower (both latency and bandwidth) big (tera
> >>>>   bytes)
> >>>>   - DDR (good old memory) well characteristics are between HBM and
> >>>>   persistent
> >>>>
> >>>> So AFAICT this has nothing to do with what HMM is for, ie device memory.
> >>>> Note
> >>>> that device memory can have a hierarchy of memory themself (HBM, GDDR
> >>>> and in
> >>>> maybe even persistent memory).
> >>>>
> >>>>>> memory on PCIE like interface then i don't expect it to be reported as
> >>>>>> NUMA
> >>>>>> memory node but as io range like any regular PCIE resources. Device
> >>>>>> driver
> >>>>>> through capabilities flags would then figure out if the link between
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> device and CPU is CCIX capable if so it can use this helper to hotplug
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> as device memory.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From my point of view,  Cache coherent device memory will popular soon
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> reported through ACPI/UEFI. Extending NUMA policy still sounds more
> >>>>> reasonable
> >>>>> to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cache coherent device will be reported through standard mecanisms
> >>>> defined by
> >>>> the bus standard they are using. To my knowledge all the standard are
> >>>> either
> >>>> on top of PCIE or are similar to PCIE.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is true that on many platform PCIE resource is manage/initialize by
> >>>> the
> >>>> bios (UEFI) but it is platform specific. In some case we reprogram what
> >>>> the
> >>>> bios pick.
> >>>>
> >>>> So like i was saying i don't expect the BIOS/UEFI to report device
> >>>> memory as
> >>>> regular memory. It will be reported as a regular PCIE resources and then
> >>>> the
> >>>> device driver will be able to determine through some flags if the link
> >>>> between
> >>>> the CPU(s) and the device is cache coherent or not. At that point the
> >>>> device
> >>>> driver can use register it with HMM helper.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The whole NUMA discussion happen several time in the past i suggest
> >>>> looking
> >>>> on mm list archive for them. But it was rule out for several reasons.
> >>>> Top of
> >>>> my head:
> >>>>   - people hate CPU less node and device memory is inherently CPU less
> >>>
> >>> With the introduction of the HMAT in ACPI 6.2 one of the things that was
> >>> added
> >>> was the ability to have an ACPI proximity domain that isn't associated
> >>> with a
> >>> CPU.  This can be seen in the changes in the text of the "Proximity
> >>> Domain"
> >>> field in table 5-73 which describes the "Memory Affinity Structure".  One
> >>> of
> >>> the major features of the HMAT was the separation of "Initiator"
> >>> proximity
> >>> domains (CPUs, devices that initiate memory transfers), and "target"
> >>> proximity
> >>> domains (memory regions, be they attached to a CPU or some other device).
> >>>
> >>> ACPI proximity domains map directly to Linux NUMA nodes, so I think we're
> >>> already in a place where we have to support CPU-less NUMA nodes.
> >>>
> >>>>   - device driver want total control over memory and thus to be isolated
> >>>>   from
> >>>>     mm mecanism and doing all those special cases was not welcome
> >>>
> >>> I agree that the kernel doesn't have enough information to be able to
> >>> accurately handle all the use cases for the various types of
> >>> heterogeneous
> >>> memory.   The goal of my HMAT enabling is to allow that memory to be
> >>> reserved
> >>> from kernel use via the "Reservation Hint" in the HMAT's Memory Subsystem
> >>> Address Range Structure, then provide userspace with enough information
> >>> to be
> >>> able to distinguish between the various types of memory in the system so
> >>> it
> >>> can allocate & utilize it appropriately.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Does this mean require an user space memory management library to deal
> >> with all
> >> alloc/free/defragment.. But how to do with virtual <-> physical address
> >> mapping
> >> from userspace?
> > 
> > For HMM each process give hint (somewhat similar to mbind) for range of
> > virtual
> > address to the device kernel driver (through some API like OpenCL or CUDA
> > for GPU
> > for instance). All this being device driver specific ioctl.
> > 
> > The kernel device driver have an overall view of all the process that use
> > the device
> > and each of the memory advise they gave. From that informations the kernel
> > device
> > driver decide what part of each process address space to migrate to device
> > memory.
> 
> Oh, I mean CDM-HMM.  I'm fine with HMM.
> 
> > This obviously dynamic and likely to change over the process lifetime.
> > 
> > 
> > My understanding is that HMAT want similar API to allow process to give
> > direction on
> > where each range of virtual address should be allocated. It is expected
> > that most
> 
> Right, but not clear who should manage the physical memory allocation and
> setup the
> pagetable mapping. An new driver or the kernel?
> 
> > software can easily infer what part of its address will need more
> > bandwidth, smaller
> > latency versus what part is sparsely accessed ...
> > 
> > For HMAT i think first target is HBM and persistent memory and device
> > memory might
> > be added latter if that make sense.
> > 
> 
> Okay, so there are two potential ways for CPU-addressable cache-coherent
> device memory
> (or cpu-less numa memory or "target domain" memory in ACPI spec )?
> 1. CDM-HMM
> 2. HMAT
> 
> --
> Regards,
> Bob Liu
> 
> 

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