linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH 0/8] livepatch: klp-convert tool

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Message-ID: <20171019162001.4y3lb3eqsucop6x4@treble>
Date:   Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:20:01 -0500
From:   Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com>
To:     Miroslav Benes <mbenes@...e.cz>
Cc:     Joao Moreira <jmoreira@...e.de>, live-patching@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, mmarek@...e.cz, pmladek@...e.com,
        jikos@...e.cz, nstange@...e.de, jroedel@...e.de, matz@...e.de,
        khlebnikov@...dex-team.ru, jeyu@...nel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/8] livepatch: klp-convert tool

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 06:00:54PM +0200, Miroslav Benes wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2017, Josh Poimboeuf wrote:
> > My main objection to merging klp-convert in its current state is that
> > it's not useful by itself.  In fact, it's actively dangerous if people
> > assume that because it's in-tree, it's the definitive way to safely
> > create patches.
> > 
> > I have a similar worry about the livepatch-sample module.  It's also
> > actively dangerous.  Its only decent justification for being in-tree,
> > IMO, is that we at least need some type of in-tree user of the klp
> > interfaces.
> 
> Well, you could use this reasoning even for kernel livepatching codebase 
> itself. It is hard to use it right, but it is there and thus dangerous.

Indeed, and this is exactly why we've been working on the kpatch author
guide:

  https://github.com/dynup/kpatch/blob/master/doc/patch-author-guide.md

It's currently kpatch-specific, but it mostly applies to livepatch as
well.  It needs to be "ported" to livepatch and moved upstream.

But with klp-convert, there's no such documentation, because there's no
safe way to use it without other supplementary tooling which doesn't
exist.

> > klp-convert is a vast improvement to the livepatch-sample module, but I
> > view that as a bad thing because it makes it a lot easier to do
> > something stupid ;-)
> > 
> > If it were part of a complete solution, with some supporting tooling
> > and/or documentation which prevent the user from making dumb mistakes,
> > then I think it would make sense to merge it.
> 
> Right, so this is where our views differ a bit. I'd like to get to the 
> finish line (whatever that means) slowly but steady and not to wait for 
> the ultimate solution if it can be implemented step by step. 

An iterative approach makes a lot of sense.  But if the intermediate
steps aren't useful, does it make sense for them to be in mainline?
Can't we do development in another tree?

> I think it is time for others to express their opinions. We should talk 
> about it next week at OSS.

Yes, maybe over a pilsner or two...

-- 
Josh