Message-Id: <896E6047-A49F-4E2E-A831-34CC2AD48550@gmail.com>
Date:   Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:05:08 +0300
From:   Ilya Smith <blackzert@...il.com>
To:     Daniel Micay <danielmicay@...il.com>
Cc:     Matthew Wilcox <willy@...radead.org>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>,
        "Kirill A. Shutemov" <kirill.shutemov@...ux.intel.com>,
        Jan Kara <jack@...e.cz>, Jerome Glisse <jglisse@...hat.com>,
        Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>, Helge Deller <deller@....de>,
        Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>,
        Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>, Linux-MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Kernel Hardening <kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] Randomization of address chosen by mmap.

> On 5 Mar 2018, at 17:23, Daniel Micay <danielmicay@...il.com> wrote:
> I didn't suggest this as the way of implementing fine-grained
> randomization but rather a small starting point for hardening address
> space layout further. I don't think it should be tied to a mmap flag
> but rather something like a personality flag or a global sysctl. It
> doesn't need to be random at all to be valuable, and it's just a first
> step. It doesn't mean there can't be switches between random pivots
> like OpenBSD mmap, etc. I'm not so sure that randomly switching around
> is going to result in isolating things very well though.
> 

Here I like the idea of Kees Cook:
> I think this will need a larger knob -- doing this by default is
> likely to break stuff, I'd imagine? Bikeshedding: I'm not sure if this
> should be setting "3" for /proc/sys/kernel/randomize_va_space, or a
> separate one like /proc/sys/mm/randomize_mmap_allocation.
I mean it should be a way to turn randomization off since some applications are 
really need huge memory.
If you have suggestion here, would be really helpful to discuss.
I think one switch might be done globally for system administrate like 
/proc/sys/mm/randomize_mmap_allocation and another one would be good to have 
some ioctl to switch it of in case if application knows what to do.

I would like to implement it in v2 of the patch.

>> I can’t understand what direction this conversation is going to. I was talking
>> about weak implementation in Linux kernel but got many comments about ASLR
>> should be implemented in user mode what is really weird to me.
> 
> That's not what I said. I was saying that splitting things into
> regions based on the type of allocation works really well and allows
> for high entropy bases, but that the kernel can't really do that right
> now. It could split up code that starts as PROT_EXEC into a region but
> that's generally not how libraries are mapped in so it won't know
> until mprotect which is obviously too late. Unless it had some kind of
> type key passed from userspace, it can't really do that.

Yes, thats really true. I wrote about earlier. This is the issue - kernel can’t 
provide such interface thats why I try to get maximum from current mmap design. 
May be later we could split mmap on different actions by different types of 
memory it handles. But it will be a very long road I think. 

>> I think it is possible  to add GUARD pages into my implementations, but initially
>> problem was about entropy of address choosing. I would like to resolve it step by
>> step.
> 
> Starting with fairly aggressive fragmentation of the address space is
> going to be a really hard sell. The costs of a very spread out address
> space in terms of TLB misses, etc. are unclear. Starting with enforced
> gaps (1 page) and randomization for those wouldn't rule out having
> finer-grained randomization, like randomly switching between different
> regions. This needs to be cheap enough that people want to enable it,
> and the goals need to be clearly spelled out. The goal needs to be
> clearer than "more randomization == good" and then accepting a high
> performance cost for that.
> 

I want to clarify. As I know TLB caches doesn’t care about distance between 
pages, since it works with pages. So in theory TLB miss is not an issue here. I 
agree, I need to show the performance costs here. I will. Just give some time 
please.

The enforced gaps, in my case:
+	addr = get_random_long() % ((high - low) >> PAGE_SHIFT);
+	addr = low + (addr << PAGE_SHIFT);
but what you saying, entropy here should be decreased.

How about something like this:
+	addr = get_random_long() % min(((high - low) >> PAGE_SHIFT), 
MAX_SECURE_GAP );
+	addr = high - (addr << PAGE_SHIFT);
where MAX_SECURE_GAP is configurable. Probably with sysctl.

How do you like it?

> I'm not dictating how things should be done, I don't have any say
> about that. I'm just trying to discuss it.

Sorry, thanks for your involvement. I’m really appreciate it. 

Thanks,
Ilya

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