linux-kernel - Re: [RFC PATCH for 4.18 00/14] Restartable Sequences

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <CAJWu+opXjYrjrz1=k0TjjCqiYQ0y=6jRMiRWNvb8_dHAtSByug@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Thu, 03 May 2018 16:48:19 +0000
From:   Joel Fernandes <joelaf@...gle.com>
To:     Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>
Cc:     Daniel Colascione <dancol@...gle.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        Paul McKenney <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
        Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>, davejwatson@...com,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, linux-api@...r.kernel.org,
        Paul Turner <pjt@...gle.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        linux@....linux.org.uk, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, hpa@...or.com,
        Andrew Hunter <ahh@...gle.com>, andi@...stfloor.org,
        cl@...ux.com, bmaurer@...com, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
        Josh Triplett <josh@...htriplett.org>,
        torvalds@...ux-foundation.org,
        Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>,
        Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>, mtk.manpages@...il.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH for 4.18 00/14] Restartable Sequences

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:12 AM Mathieu Desnoyers <
mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com> wrote:

> ----- On May 2, 2018, at 12:07 PM, Daniel Colascione dancol@...gle.com
wrote:

> > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 9:03 AM Mathieu Desnoyers <
> > mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ----- On May 1, 2018, at 11:53 PM, Daniel Colascione dancol@...gle.com
> > wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> >
> >> > I think a small enhancement to rseq would let us build a perfect
> > userspace
> >> > mutex, one that spins on lock-acquire only when the lock owner is
> > running
> >> > and that sleeps otherwise, freeing userspace from both specifying
ad-hoc
> >> > spin counts and from trying to detect situations in which spinning is
> >> > generally pointless.
> >> >
> >> > It'd work like this: in the per-thread rseq data structure, we'd
> > include a
> >> > description of a futex operation for the kernel would perform (in the
> >> > context of the preempted thread) upon preemption, immediately before
> >> > schedule(). If the futex operation itself sleeps, that's no problem:
we
> >> > will have still accomplished our goal of running some other thread
> > instead
> >> > of the preempted thread.
> >
> >> Hi Daniel,
> >
> >> I agree that the problem you are aiming to solve is important. Let's
see
> >> what prevents the proposed rseq implementation from doing what you
> > envision.
> >
> >> The main issue here is touching userspace immediately before
schedule().
> >> At that specific point, it's not possible to take a page fault. In the
> > proposed
> >> rseq implementation, we get away with it by raising a task struct flag,
> > and using
> >> it in a return to userspace notifier (where we can actually take a
> > fault), where
> >> we touch the userspace TLS area.
> >
> >> If we can find a way to solve this limitation, then the rest of your
> > design
> >> makes sense to me.
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look!
> >
> > Why couldn't we take a page fault just before schedule? The reason we
can't
> > take a page fault in atomic context is that doing so might call
schedule.
> > Here, we're about to call schedule _anyway_, so what harm does it do to
> > call something that might call schedule? If we schedule via that call,
we
> > can skip the manual schedule we were going to perform.

> By the way, if we eventually find a way to enhance user-space mutexes in
the
> fashion you describe here, it would belong to another TLS area, and would
> be registered by another system call than rseq. I proposed a more generic

Right. Also I still don't see any good reason why optimistic spinning in
the kernel with FUTEX_LOCK, as Peter described, can't be used instead of
using the rseq implementation and spinning in userspace, for such a case. I
don't really fully buy that we need to design this interface assuming any
privilege transition level time. If privilege level transitions are slow,
we're going to have bad performance anyway. Unless there's some data to
show that we have to optimistically spin in userspace than the kernel
because its better to do so, we should really stick to using FUTEX_LOCK and
reuse all the work that went into that area for Android and otherwise (and
work with Waiman and others on improving that if there are any problems
with it).

I am excited though about the other synchronization design other than lock
implementation that rseq can help in.

thanks!

- Joel