linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH 2/2] tools/memory-model: Add write ordering by release-acquire and by locks

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <20180705183836.GA3175@andrea>
Date:   Thu, 5 Jul 2018 20:38:36 +0200
From:   Andrea Parri <andrea.parri@...rulasolutions.com>
To:     Daniel Lustig <dlustig@...dia.com>
Cc:     paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com, Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>,
        Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
        LKMM Maintainers -- Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@...il.com>,
        Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
        David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
        Jade Alglave <j.alglave@....ac.uk>,
        Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@...ia.fr>,
        Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        Kernel development list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] tools/memory-model: Add write ordering by
 release-acquire and by locks

> No, I'm definitely not pushing for anything stronger.  I'm still just
> wondering if the name "RCsc" is right for what you described.  For
> example, Andrea just said this in a parallel email:
> 
> > "RCsc" as ordering everything except for W -> R, without the [extra]
> > barriers

And I already regret it: the point is, different communities/people have
different things in mind when they use terms such as "RCsc" or "ordering"
and different communities seems to be represented in LKMM.

Really, I don't think that this is simply a matter of naming (personally,
I'd be OK with "foo" or whather you suggested below! ;-)). My suggestion
would be: "get in there!! ;-) please let's refrain from using terms such
as these (_overly_ overloaded) "RCsc" and "order" when talking about MCM
let's rather talk, say, about "ppo", "cumul-fence" ...

  Andrea


> 
> If it's "RCsc with exceptions", doesn't it make sense to find a
> different name, rather than simply overloading the term "RCsc" with
> a subtly different meaning, and hoping nobody gets confused?
> 
> I suppose on x86 and ARM you'd happen to get "true RCsc" anyway, just
> due to the way things are currently mapped: LOCKed RMWs and "true RCsc"
> instructions, respectively.  But on Power and RISC-V, it would really
> be more "RCsc with a W->R exception", right?
> 
> In fact, the more I think about it, this doesn't seem to be RCsc at all.
> It seems closer to "RCpc plus extra PC ordering between critical
> sections".  No?
> 
> The synchronization accesses themselves aren't sequentially consistent
> with respect to each other under the Power or RISC-V mappings, unless
> there's a hwsync in there somewhere that I missed?  Or a rule
> preventing stw from forwarding to lwarx?  Or some other higher-order
> effect preventing it from being observed anyway?
> 
> So that's all I'm suggesting here.  If you all buy that, maybe "RCpccs"
> for "RCpc with processor consistent critical section ordering"?
> I don't have a strong opinion on the name itself; I just want to find
> a name that's less ambiguous or overloaded.
> 
> Dan