Message-ID: <20180802234820.GU68975@google.com>
Date:   Thu, 2 Aug 2018 16:48:20 -0700
From:   Matthias Kaehlcke <mka@...omium.org>
To:     Chanwoo Choi <cw00.choi@...sung.com>
Cc:     MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@...sung.com>,
        Kyungmin Park <kyungmin.park@...sung.com>,
        Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        Rob Herring <robh+dt@...nel.org>,
        Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>, linux-pm@...r.kernel.org,
        devicetree@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Brian Norris <briannorris@...omium.org>,
        Douglas Anderson <dianders@...omium.org>,
        Enric Balletbo i Serra <enric.balletbo@...labora.com>,
        "Rafael J . Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
        Viresh Kumar <viresh.kumar@...aro.org>,
        Lee Jones <lee.jones@...aro.org>,
        Benson Leung <bleung@...omium.org>,
        Olof Johansson <olof@...om.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 05/12] PM / devfreq: Add support for policy notifiers

On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 04:13:43PM -0700, Matthias Kaehlcke wrote:
> Hi Chanwoo,
> 
> On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 10:58:59AM +0900, Chanwoo Choi wrote:
> > Hi Matthias,
> > 
> > On 2018년 08월 02일 02:08, Matthias Kaehlcke wrote:
> > > Hi Chanwoo,
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Aug 01, 2018 at 10:22:16AM +0900, Chanwoo Choi wrote:
> > >> On 2018년 08월 01일 04:39, Matthias Kaehlcke wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 10:50:50AM -0700, Matthias Kaehlcke wrote:
> > >>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 05:44:33PM +0900, Chanwoo Choi wrote:
> > >>>>> Hi Matthias,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 2018년 07월 07일 02:53, Matthias Kaehlcke wrote:
> > >>>>>> Hi Chanwoo,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 03:41:46PM +0900, Chanwoo Choi wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Firstly,
> > >>>>>>> I'm not sure why devfreq needs the devfreq_verify_within_limits() function.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> devfreq already used the OPP interface as default. It means that
> > >>>>>>> the outside of 'drivers/devfreq' can disable/enable the frequency
> > >>>>>>> such as drivers/thermal/devfreq_cooling.c. Also, when some device
> > >>>>>>> drivers disable/enable the specific frequency, the devfreq core
> > >>>>>>> consider them.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> So, devfreq doesn't need to devfreq_verify_within_limits() because
> > >>>>>>> already support some interface to change the minimum/maximum frequency
> > >>>>>>> of devfreq device. 
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In case of cpufreq subsystem, cpufreq only provides 'cpufreq_verify_with_limits()'
> > >>>>>>> to change the minimum/maximum frequency of cpu. some device driver cannot
> > >>>>>>> change the minimum/maximum frequency through OPP interface.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> But, in case of devfreq subsystem, as I explained already, devfreq support
> > >>>>>>> the OPP interface as default way. devfreq subsystem doesn't need to add
> > >>>>>>> other way to change the minimum/maximum frequency.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Using the OPP interface exclusively works as long as a
> > >>>>>> enabling/disabling of OPPs is limited to a single driver
> > >>>>>> (drivers/thermal/devfreq_cooling.c). When multiple drivers are
> > >>>>>> involved you need a way to resolve conflicts, that's the purpose of
> > >>>>>> devfreq_verify_within_limits(). Please let me know if there are
> > >>>>>> existing mechanisms for conflict resolution that I overlooked.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Possibly drivers/thermal/devfreq_cooling.c could be migrated to use
> > >>>>>> devfreq_verify_within_limits() instead of the OPP interface if
> > >>>>>> desired, however this seems beyond the scope of this series.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Actually, if we uses this approach, it doesn't support the multiple drivers too.
> > >>>>> If non throttler drivers uses devfreq_verify_within_limits(), the conflict
> > >>>>> happen.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As long as drivers limit the max freq there is no conflict, the lowest
> > >>>> max freq wins. I expect this to be the usual case, apparently it
> > >>>> worked for cpufreq for 10+ years.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> However it is correct that there would be a conflict if a driver
> > >>>> requests a min freq that is higher than the max freq requested by
> > >>>> another. In this case devfreq_verify_within_limits() resolves the
> > >>>> conflict by raising p->max to the min freq. Not sure if this is
> > >>>> something that would ever occur in practice though.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If we are really concerned about this case it would also be an option
> > >>>> to limit the adjustment to the max frequency.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> To resolve the conflict for multiple device driver, maybe OPP interface
> > >>>>> have to support 'usage_count' such as clk_enable/disable().
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This would require supporting negative usage count values, since a OPP
> > >>>> should not be enabled if e.g. thermal enables it but the throttler
> > >>>> disabled it or viceversa.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Theoretically there could also be conflicts, like one driver disabling
> > >>>> the higher OPPs and another the lower ones, with the outcome of all
> > >>>> OPPs being disabled, which would be a more drastic conflict resolution
> > >>>> than that of devfreq_verify_within_limits().
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Viresh, what do you think about an OPP usage count?
> > >>>
> > >>> Ping, can we try to reach a conclusion on this or at least keep the
> > >>> discussion going?
> > >>>
> > >>> Not that it matters, but my preferred solution continues to be
> > >>> devfreq_verify_within_limits(). It solves conflicts in some way (which
> > >>> could be adjusted if needed) and has proven to work in practice for
> > >>> 10+ years in a very similar sub-system.
> > >>
> > >> It is not true. Current cpufreq subsystem doesn't support external OPP
> > >> control to enable/disable the OPP entry. If some device driver
> > >> controls the OPP entry of cpufreq driver with opp_disable/enable(),
> > >> the operation is not working. Because cpufreq considers the limit
> > >> through 'cpufreq_verify_with_limits()' only.
> > > 
> > > Ok, we can probably agree that using cpufreq_verify_with_limits()
> > > exclusively seems to have worked well for cpufreq, and that in their
> > > overall purpose cpufreq and devfreq are similar subsystems.
> > > 
> > > The current throttler series with devfreq_verify_within_limits() takes
> > > the enabled OPPs into account, the lowest and highest OPP are used as
> > > a starting point for the frequency adjustment and (in theory) the
> > > frequency range should only be narrowed by
> > > devfreq_verify_within_limits().
> > > 
> > >> As I already commented[1], there is different between cpufreq and devfreq.
> > >> [1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/7/4/80
> > >>
> > >> Already, subsystem already used OPP interface in order to control
> > >> specific OPP entry. I don't want to provide two outside method
> > >> to control the frequency of devfreq driver. It might make the confusion.
> > > 
> > > I understand your point, it would indeed be preferable to have a
> > > single method. However I'm not convinced that the OPP interface is
> > > a suitable solution, as I exposed earlier in this thread (quoted
> > > below).
> > > 
> > > I would like you to at least consider the possibility of changing
> > > drivers/thermal/devfreq_cooling.c to devfreq_verify_within_limits().
> > > Besides that it's not what is currently used, do you see any technical
> > > concerns that would make devfreq_verify_within_limits() an unsuitable
> > > or inferior solution?
> > 
> > As we already discussed, devfreq_verify_within_limits() doesn't support
> > the multiple outside controllers (e.g., devfreq-cooling.c).
> 
> That's incorrect, its purpose is precisely that.
> 
> Are you suggesting that cpufreq with its use of
> cpufreq_verify_within_limits() (the inspiration for
> devfreq_verify_within_limits()) is broken? It is used by cpu_cooling.c
> and other drivers when receiving a CPUFREQ_ADJUST event, essentially
> what I am proposing with DEVFREQ_ADJUST.
> 
> Could you elaborate why this model wouldn't work for devfreq? "OPP
> interface is mandatory for devfreq" isn't really a technical argument,
> is it mandatory for any other reason than that it is the interface
> that is currently used?
> 
> > After you are suggesting the throttler core, there are at least two
> > outside controllers (e.g., devfreq-cooling.c and throttler driver).
> > As I knew the problem about conflict, I cannot agree the temporary
> > method. OPP interface is mandatory for devfreq in order to control
> > the OPP (frequency/voltage). In this situation, we have to try to
> > find the method through OPP interface.
> 
> What do you mean with "temporary method"?
> 
> We can try to find a method through the OPP interface, but at this
> point I'm not convinced that it is technically necessary or even
> preferable.
> 
> Another inconvenient of the OPP approach for both devfreq-cooling.c
> and the throttler is that they have to bother with disabling all OPPs
> above/below the max/min (they don't/shouldn't have to care), instead
> of just telling devfreq the max/min.

And a more important one: both drivers now have to keep track which
OPPs they enabled/disabled previously, done are the days of a simple
dev_pm_opp_enable/disable() in devfreq_cooling. Certainly it is
possible and not very complex to implement, but is it really the
best/a good solution?

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