Date:   Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:30:24 -0700
From:   Roman Gushchin <guro@...com>
To:     David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>
CC:     <linux-mm@...ck.org>, Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>,
        Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
        Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@...ove.sakura.ne.jp>,
        Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>, <kernel-team@...com>,
        <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] introduce memory.oom.group

On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 02:34:06PM -0700, David Rientjes wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Aug 2018, Roman Gushchin wrote:
> 
> > Ok, I think that what we'll do here:
> > 1) drop the current cgroup-aware OOM killer implementation from the mm tree
> > 2) land memory.oom.group to the mm tree (your ack will be appreciated)
> > 3) discuss and, hopefully, agree on memory.oom.policy interface
> > 4) land memory.oom.policy
> > 
> 
> Yes, I'm fine proceeding this way, there's a clear separation between the 
> policy and mechanism and they can be introduced independent of each other.  
> As I said in my patchset, we can also introduce policies independent of 
> each other and I have no objection to your design that addresses your 
> specific usecase, with your own policy decisions, with the added caveat 
> that we do so in a way that respects other usecases.
> 
> Specifically, I would ask that the following be respected:
> 
>  - Subtrees delegated to users can still operate as they do today with
>    per-process selection (largest, or influenced by oom_score_adj) so
>    their victim selection is not changed out from under them.  This
>    requires the entire hierarchy is not locked into a specific policy,
>    and also that a subtree is not locked in a specific policy.  In other
>    words, if an oom condition occurs in a user-controlled subtree they
>    have the ability to get the same selection criteria as they do today.
> 
>  - Policies are implemented in a way that has an extensible API so that
>    we do not unnecessarily limit or prohibit ourselves from making changes
>    in the future or from extending the functionality by introducing other
>    policy choices that are needed in the future.
> 
> I hope that I'm not being unrealistic in assuming that you're fine with 
> these since it can still preserve your goals.
> 
> > Basically, with oom.group separated everything we need is another
> > boolean knob, which means that the memcg should be evaluated together.
> 
> In a cgroup-aware oom killer world, yes, we need the ability to specify 
> that the usage of the entire subtree should be compared as a single 
> entity with other cgroups.  That is necessary for user subtrees but may 
> not be necessary for top-level cgroups depending on how you structure your 
> unified cgroup hierarchy.  So it needs to be configurable, as you suggest, 
> and you are correct it can be different than oom.group.
> 
> That's not the only thing we need though, as I'm sure you were expecting 
> me to say :)
> 
> We need the ability to preserve existing behavior, i.e. process based and 
> not cgroup aware, for subtrees so that our users who have clear 
> expectations and tune their oom_score_adj accordingly based on how the oom 
> killer has always chosen processes for oom kill do not suddenly regress.

Isn't the combination of oom.group=0 and oom.evaluate_together=1 describing
this case? This basically means that if memcg is selected as target,
the process inside will be selected using traditional per-process approach.

> So we need to define the policy for a subtree that is oom, and I suggest 
> we do that as a characteristic of the cgroup that is oom ("process" vs 
> "cgroup", and process would be the default to preserve what currently 
> happens in a user subtree).

I'm not entirely convinced here.
I do agree, that some sub-tree may have a well tuned oom_score_adj,
and it's preferable to keep the current behavior.

At the same time I don't like the idea to look at the policy of the OOMing
cgroup. Why exceeding of one limit should be handled different to exceeding
of another? This seems to be a property of workload, not a limit.

> 
> Now, as users who rely on process selection are well aware, we have 
> oom_score_adj to influence the decision of which process to oom kill.  If 
> our oom subtree is cgroup aware, we should have the ability to likewise 
> influence that decision.  For example, we have high priority applications 
> that run at the top-level that use a lot of memory and strictly oom 
> killing them in all scenarios because they use a lot of memory isn't 
> appropriate.  We need to be able to adjust the comparison of a cgroup (or 
> subtree) when compared to other cgroups.
> 
> I've also suggested, but did not implement in my patchset because I was 
> trying to define the API and find common ground first, that we have a need 
> for priority based selection.  In other words, define the priority of a 
> subtree regardless of cgroup usage.
> 
> So with these four things, we have
> 
>  - an "oom.policy" tunable to define "cgroup" or "process" for that 
>    subtree (and plans for "priority" in the future),
> 
>  - your "oom.evaluate_as_group" tunable to account the usage of the
>    subtree as the cgroup's own usage for comparison with others,
> 
>  - an "oom.adj" to adjust the usage of the cgroup (local or subtree)
>    to protect important applications and bias against unimportant
>    applications.
> 
> This adds several tunables, which I didn't like, so I tried to overload 
> oom.policy and oom.evaluate_as_group.  When I referred to separating out 
> the subtree usage accounting into a separate tunable, that is what I have 
> referenced above.

IMO, merging multiple tunables into one doesn't make it saner.
The real question how to make a reasonable interface with fever tunables.

The reason behind introducing all these knobs is to provide
a generic solution to define OOM handling rules, but then the
question raises if the kernel is the best place for it.

I really doubt that an interface with so many knobs has any chances
to be merged.

IMO, there should be a compromise between the simplicity (basically,
the number of tunables and possible values) and functionality
of the interface. You nacked my previous version, and unfortunately
I don't have anything better so far.

Thanks!

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