Message-Id: <20181105034330.GP4170@linux.ibm.com>
Date:   Sun, 4 Nov 2018 19:43:30 -0800
From:   "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.ibm.com>
To:     Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>
Cc:     linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] doc: rcu: remove note on smp_mb during synchronize_rcu

On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 08:49:56PM -0700, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 04:22:59PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 02, 2018 at 10:12:26PM -0700, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 09:13:07AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 10:00:19PM -0700, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:17:48AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 06:11:19PM -0700, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Paul,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 04:43:36PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:26:49PM -0700, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi Paul,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 09:30:46PM -0700, Joel Fernandes (Google) wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > As per this thread [1], it seems this smp_mb isn't needed anymore:
> > > > > > > > > > "So the smp_mb() that I was trying to add doesn't need to be there."
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > So let us remove this part from the memory ordering documentation.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > [1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/6/707
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Joel Fernandes (Google) <joel@...lfernandes.org>
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I was just checking about this patch. Do you feel it is correct to remove
> > > > > > > > > this part from the docs? Are you satisified that a barrier isn't needed there
> > > > > > > > > now? Or did I miss something?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Apologies, it got lost in the shuffle.  I have now applied it with a
> > > > > > > > bit of rework to the commit log, thank you!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > No worries, thanks for taking it!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Just wanted to update you on my progress reading/correcting the docs. The
> > > > > > > 'Memory Ordering' is taking a bit of time so I paused that and I'm focusing
> > > > > > > on finishing all the other low hanging fruit. This activity is mostly during
> > > > > > > night hours after the baby is asleep but some times I also manage to sneak it
> > > > > > > into the day job ;-)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If there is anything I can do to make this a more sustainable task for
> > > > > > you, please do not keep it a secret!!!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks a lot, that means a lot to me! Will do!
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > BTW I do want to discuss about this smp_mb patch above with you at LPC if you
> > > > > > > had time, even though we are removing it from the documentation. I thought
> > > > > > > about it a few times, and I was not able to fully appreciate the need for the
> > > > > > > barrier (that is even assuming that complete() etc did not do the right
> > > > > > > thing).  Specifically I was wondering same thing Peter said in the above
> > > > > > > thread I think that - if that rcu_read_unlock() triggered all the spin
> > > > > > > locking up the tree of nodes, then why is that locking not sufficient to
> > > > > > > prevent reads from the read-side section from bleeding out? That would
> > > > > > > prevent the reader that just unlocked from seeing anything that happens
> > > > > > > _after_ the synchronize_rcu.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Actually, I recall an smp_mb() being added, but am not seeing it anywhere
> > > > > > relevant to wait_for_completion().  So I might need to add the smp_mb()
> > > > > > to synchronize_rcu() and remove the patch (retaining the typo fix).  :-/
> > > > > 
> > > > > No problem, I'm glad atleast the patch resurfaced the topic of the potential
> > > > > issue :-)
> > > > 
> > > > And an smp_mb() is needed in Tree RCU's __wait_rcu_gp().  This is
> > > > because wait_for_completion() might get a "fly-by" wakeup, which would
> > > > mean no ordering for code naively thinking that it was ordered after a
> > > > grace period.
> > > > 
> > > > > > The short form answer is that anything before a grace period on any CPU
> > > > > > must be seen by any CPU as being before anything on any CPU after that
> > > > > > same grace period.  This guarantee requires a rather big hammer.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But yes, let's talk at LPC!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sounds great, looking forward to discussing this.
> > > > 
> > > > Would it make sense to have an RCU-implementation BoF?
> > > > 
> > > > > > > Also about GP memory ordering and RCU-tree-locking, I think you mentioned to
> > > > > > > me that the RCU reader-sections are virtually extended both forward and
> > > > > > > backward and whereever it ends, those paths do heavy-weight synchronization
> > > > > > > that should be sufficient to prevent memory ordering issues (such as those
> > > > > > > you mentioned in the Requierments document). That is exactly why we don't
> > > > > > > need explicit barriers during rcu_read_unlock. If I recall I asked you why
> > > > > > > those are not needed. So that answer made sense, but then now on going
> > > > > > > through the 'Memory Ordering' document, I see that you mentioned there is
> > > > > > > reliance on the locking. Is that reliance on locking necessary to maintain
> > > > > > > ordering then?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > There is a "network" of locking augmented by smp_mb__after_unlock_lock()
> > > > > > that implements the all-to-all memory ordering mentioned above.  But it
> > > > > > also needs to handle all the possible complete()/wait_for_completion()
> > > > > > races, even those assisted by hypervisor vCPU preemption.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I see, so it sounds like the lock network is just a partial solution. For
> > > > > some reason I thought before that complete() was even called on the CPU
> > > > > executing the callback, all the CPUs would have acquired and released a lock
> > > > > in the "lock network" atleast once thus ensuring the ordering (due to the
> > > > > fact that the quiescent state reporting has to travel up the tree starting
> > > > > from the leaves), but I think that's not necessarily true so I see your point
> > > > > now.
> > > > 
> > > > There is indeed a lock that is unconditionally acquired and released by
> > > > wait_for_completion(), but it lacks the smp_mb__after_unlock_lock() that
> > > > is required to get full-up any-to-any ordering.  And unfortunate timing
> > > > (as well as spurious wakeups) allow the interaction to have only normal
> > > > lock-release/acquire ordering, which does not suffice in all cases.
> > > 
> > > Sorry to be so persistent, but I did spend some time on this and I still
> > > don't get why every CPU would _not_ have executed smp_mb__after_unlock_lock at least
> > > once before the wait_for_completion() returns, because every CPU should have
> > > atleast called rcu_report_qs_rdp() -> rcu_report_qs_rnp() atleast once to
> > > report its QS up the tree right?. Before that procedure, the complete()
> > > cannot happen because the complete() itself is in an RCU callback which is
> > > executed only once all the QS(s) have been reported.
> > > 
> > > So I still couldn't see how the synchronize_rcu can return without the
> > > rcu_report_qs_rnp called atleast once on the CPU reporting its QS during a
> > > grace period.
> > > 
> > > Would it be possible to provide a small example showing this in least number
> > > of steps? I appreciate your time and it would be really helpful. If you feel
> > > its too complicated, then feel free to keep this for LPC discussion :)
> > 
> > The key point is that "at least once" does not suffice, other than for the
> > CPU that detects the end of the grace period.  The rest of the CPUs must
> > do at least -two- full barriers, which could of course be either smp_mb()
> > on the one hand or smp_mb__after_unlock_lock() after a lock on the other.
> 
> I thought I'll atleast get an understanding of the "atleast two full
> barriers" point and ask you any questions at LPC, because that's what I'm
> missing I think. Trying to understand what can go wrong without two full
> barriers. I'm sure an RCU implementation BoF could really in this regard.
> 
> I guess its also documented somewhere in Tree-RCU-Memory-Ordering.html but a
> quick search through that document didn't show a mention of the two full
> barriers need.. I think its also a great idea for us to document it there
> and/or discuss it during the conference.
> 
> I went through the litmus test here for some hints on the two-barriers but
> couldn't find any:
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/5/636
> 
> Atleast this commit made me think no extra memory barrier is needed for
> tree RCU:  :-\
> https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/patch/813386/
> 
> I'm sure your last email will be useful to me in the future once I can make
> more sense of the ordering and the need for two full barriers, so thanks a
> lot for writing it!

Hmmm...  I have had this argument before, haven't I?  Perhaps I should
take some time and get my story straight.  ;-)

In my defense, I have been doing RCU since the early 1990s, long before
executable formal memory models.  I kept it working through sheer
paranoia, and that is a hard habit to shake...

							Thanx, Paul

Powered by blists - more mailing lists